JT III

[EtomicB]

Mar 18, 2011 22:39:09 GMT -5 BeantownHoya said:

Let me be very clear - I have never said a negative word about JT III on this board. In the privacy of my basement I have ranted, but not here.

I guess my question is...How much time does a Final Four in 2007 buy him?

08 - 2nd Round Exit
09 - NIT 1st Round
10 - 1st Round Exit
11 - 1st Round Exit

Possibly these results would sit a little better with me if I felt we were moving in the right direction but I would assume this is the projected starting 5 for next year;

Sims
Lubick
Thompson
Clark
Starks

I mean is anyone confident going into next year at this point? What if next year is a 1st round exit or worst another NIT visit? At what point does JT III start to get questioned to the point of being this teams head coach?

I mean I might even feel a little better if I felt the effort was there, if we were at least playing "smart" basketball, that our players were improving, in game adjustments were being made...etc - but none of that is happening.

At some point isn't the coach responsible? I mean the last 3 years have been simply embarrassing endings.

Yes I am posting this with 10 minutes left and yes I will personally ban myself if they come back and win but the only word I can think of is disheartening. I just can't believe this is where this program is after a Final Four run 4 years ago.

We all know the administration will never have a "win at all costs" mentality so as long as 3 runs a clean "competitive" program he will be here...

That being said he must stop forcing his teams into this system. The "Princeton" offense is great but it's not right for this team or the past few teams...

He has to stop being stubborn and realize basketball isn't one size fits all

[rammajamma]

vamaosalaplaya ... understand we are all peeved, but I dont understand your logic. Calling for the coach to be reviewed, ie be held accountable for his results, does not mean that we should become fans of some other program.

JTIII is the leader and the organization is faltering. The Leader is always accountable.

[rammajamma]

adlai - missing the point. It is not just about the debacle in the post season, but the fact that we do not get better during the year ... have you watched the last 5 games? We get worse, we dont have energy, and we dont play D.

[RDF]

This Herb Sendek at NC State crap ball.

[vamosalaplaya]

My logic is the program has made the NCAAs 5 of the last 6 years, been to a final four, and been ranked in the top 10 each of the last two years, and gotten very high seeds coming into the NCAAs. Hell last year they came within a buzzer of winning the BET. They have been upset in the tournament - got it. Georgetown shouldn't be a program that puts the coach on the hotseat with that performance.

[gburyhoya]

SO MUCH FOR JT3's quote "We will figure this out"

[vamosalaplaya]

Oh yeah, NC State, another program that ran a coach out of town for "only" making the NCAAs every year. That change went pretty well.

JT III is a keeper.

[FHillsNYHoya]

Given the alternatives out there, I'm guessing most people aren't saying JTIII should get canned.

But I'm guessing our system should be tweaked a bit. The Missouri game in December was fun, but that was 25 games ago.

[EtomicB]

Mar 18, 2011 23:08:07 GMT -5 rammajamma said:

vamaosalaplaya ... understand we are all peeved, but I dont understand your logic. Calling for the coach to be reviewed, ie be held accountable for his results, does not mean that we should become fans of some other program.

JTIII is the leader and the organization is faltering. The Leader is always accountable.

Held accountable by who? As I stated in my other post as long as he keeps it clean he'll be here..

This is on him for sure but we're dreaming if we think his AD or Prez will put him under any type of watch

[FrazierFanatic]

Mar 18, 2011 22:39:09 GMT -5 BeantownHoya said:

Let me be very clear - I have never said a negative word about JT III on this board. In the privacy of my basement I have ranted, but not here.

I guess my question is...How much time does a Final Four in 2007 buy him?

08 - 2nd Round Exit
09 - NIT 1st Round
10 - 1st Round Exit
11 - 1st Round Exit

Possibly these results would sit a little better with me if I felt we were moving in the right direction but I would assume this is the projected starting 5 for next year;

Sims
Lubick
Thompson
Clark
Starks

I mean is anyone confident going into next year at this point? What if next year is a 1st round exit or worst another NIT visit? At what point does JT III start to get questioned to the point of being this teams head coach?

I mean I might even feel a little better if I felt the effort was there, if we were at least playing "smart" basketball, that our players were improving, in game adjustments were being made...etc - but none of that is happening.

At some point isn't the coach responsible? I mean the last 3 years have been simply embarrassing endings.

Yes I am posting this with 10 minutes left and yes I will personally ban myself if they come back and win but the only word I can think of is disheartening. I just can't believe this is where this program is after a Final Four run 4 years ago.

I would be every surprised if that is our starting 5 by Jan. 1 next year. We are bringing in more athletic recruits, and 1 or 2 of the guys you list could - and should if they do not improve drastically - be coming off the bench.

[SDHoya]

JTIII has had 4 years now where the group is entirely his team. And unfortunately the calling call of these teams have been perimeter shooting on offense, poor rebounding, lax defense and late season meltdowns. This has to do in part with who is recruited, but we see coaches constantly get more out of their players than JTIII does.

Frankly, if there was someone else out there that can get everything out of his team and recruit as competitively as JTIII does, I would say it is time for a serious review. Unfortunately, I don't think there are too many coaches out there with that resume. Which means its time for Pops to have a little sit down with his son and explain how teams win championships.

[biggmanu]

I just can't turn on him. Not his fault Austin Clark or Wright couldn't make a shot to save their lives. Explain how he could have adjusted in the second half, bail on the 4 seniors that got you there? I think he absolutely recruited the next class with defense in mind. Other than tightening up on D, what more can he do other than coach guys to take good shots and hope they go in.

[GUJook97]

You dont lose first round tourney games because of coaching. You lose 20 game seasons. I'm just as much at a loss as you guys, but I know for certain it has nothing to do with JTIII's coaching and recruiting.

[biggmanu]

Only person I'd rather have is JT jr

[LizziebethHoya]

[Disclaimer: I know very little about our current assistants so if I am completely off base here, be kind]

Could one of the problems be that he does not have the right staff around him? Sydney was great to have because he knew the offensive strategy just as well at JT3 (if not better). Do our current assistant coaches not know how to best work with the system?

Year after year we bring in the talent, but some players lack of development is downright frustrating. Case in point - Sims. Other examples abound. This can't all be on JT3.

Contrast that to Monroe, who was a special player from the start and showed a little improvement from Year 1 to Year 2. Then looking at him in the NBA, and I noted this in the NBA thread, his improvement from the beginning of the season to right now has been nothing short of remarkable. Yes, part of it is that he is playing at a higher level and had to adjust. Yes, part of that is that he has worked extremely hard. But, why didn't we see that improvement on some level over his past 2 years?

[harlemhoya]

Mar 19, 2011 7:25:50 GMT -5 LizziebethHoya said:

[Disclaimer: I know very little about our current assistants so if I am completely off base here, be kind]

Could one of the problems be that he does not have the right staff around him? Sydney was great to have because he knew the offensive strategy just as well at JT3 (if not better). Do our current assistant coaches not know how to best work with the system?

Year after year we bring in the talent, but some players lack of development is downright frustrating. Case in point - Sims. Other examples abound. This can't all be on JT3.

Contrast that to Monroe, who was a special player from the start and showed a little improvement from Year 1 to Year 2. Then looking at him in the NBA, and I noted this in the NBA thread, his improvement from the beginning of the season to right now has been nothing short of remarkable. Yes, part of it is that he is playing at a higher level and had to adjust. Yes, part of that is that he has worked extremely hard. But, why didn't we see that improvement on some level over his past 2 years?

Monroe improved his rebounding and jumper his sophomore year.

[adlai]

Mar 18, 2011 23:09:38 GMT -5 rammajamma said:

adlai - missing the point. It is not just about the debacle in the post season, but the fact that we do not get better during the year ... have you watched the last 5 games? We get worse, we dont have energy, and we dont play D.

rammajamma - you're clearly missing reality. If we never get better during the year, please feel free to explain how we have made the finals of the BE tourney three of the past five years. Since you seem to be basing this statement mainly on the last five games of this year, let me catch you up on a couple of things. After his ankle injury, Freeman was 6-43 from three (13.9%). CW also broke his hand during this stretch in case you missed that memo. I'm going to go out on a limb and hypothesize that these might have a wee bit more to do with explaining some of the problems over the last five games than "not getting better during the year".

[DanMcQ]

SDHoya: the thing the team did best last night was rebound - they outrebounded VCU by 12 or so (i haven't checked the box this AM).

Lizziebeth: Brennan is well-versed in the offense.

[NCHoya]

JT3 has some things to work on no doubt, but this embelished Hoya legacy thing is getting tired. True, JT2 had a sparkling record in the 1st round of the NCAAs, in a different era where the difference between a single digit seed and a double digit seed were enormous. But this myth that the Hoyas were a championship team every season is bogus.

I am not sure where this sense of entitlement from part of the fanbase is coming from. I am sorry how many final fours does JT2 have without Ewing? Why does this idea exist that the Hoyas are at the level of college basketball royalty with the expectations to match? What JT2 meant to CBB went well beyond wins and losses and if we are just sticking to Ws and Ls than JT3 stacks up very well with JT2. If you want to measure JT3 as cultural figure like his dad than you will never be satisfied.

JT3 is doing a solid job, he loses in March, so does Bill Self and for a long time Roy Williams. It happens, it is a one game opportunity, not sure how that makes him a bad coach. Does he have flaws, yes, but show me a coach who does not. Smart people, which are most on this board, have to understand one bad coaching game in March does not outweigh the 30 games before it, where Gtown usually wins 70% of the time.

I witnessed firsthand NC State get "bored" with NCAAs. I watched Wake Forest run a coach out of town because he lost too early in the NCAAs. I now see both of those programs uncompetitive in the ACC much less an NCAA team. How do you think those fanbases feel now that they got their wish? There are very few examples where a team is a top 25 program, fire its coach and gets better. When UNC hired Roy that team was an NIT team. When UL hired Pitino same thing, plus Crumb was old. UK ran Gillespie out of town, but I would never compare the Hoyas to UK.

This whole discussion is a waste of time. JT3 is not going anywhere. He has won 20+ games how many times in his 7 seasons? JT3 has us competitive in the BE and in the NCAA nearly every year. There are only a handful of programs that should have higher expectations UNC, Kentucky, Kansas, Duke, etc, the Hoyas are not among that group. Is that the goal? Yeah, but that takes about 15 years of excellence and it is kind of hard, ask the 300 other NCAA programs that have the same goal.

[calhoya]

No interest in changing coaches, but very interested in the coach changing. JT III is a bright, classy guy who brings honor to the school in the manner in which he conducts himself. He is an accomplished coach with a good resume and would be a great addition to any program. These are traits that should not be overlooked in the heat of the moment following yet another end of year meltdown. However, it is definitely time for JT III to to step back and evaluate his own growth and show the flexibility that he flashed early this year in his coaching.

You want the 5 star players then you anticipate their early departure and have a back-up plan. You cannot run the "system" without bigs who can be a threat on both ends of the court. You cannot develop players on the bench--they need to get in the game. I don't care how lost Henry or Vee are out there, it is not getting better on the bench. Let Henry screw up a little and give him a chance to play out of it--as you do with Lubick, Vaughn and others. Why the short leash for some players ( Sims and Sanford) but endless chances for others (Julian, Clark, etc.)

It is time to have a second offense that the players are schooled in for games when the system is not working. It is time to have a commitment to defense by everyone who is on the floor. It is time for growth as a coach and not blind adherence to a system and a determination to force round pegs into square holes.

Stay at the school and honor it with your intelligence, class and commitment to doing things the right way. But, it is time to acknowledge that the program is stagnating and needs a tune-up. Players are expected to develop. So too, should coaches.