kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Jan 11, 2011 14:00:36 GMT -5
Can we at least agree that the use political maps with targets over certain political districts did not originate with Sarah Palin and that such maps have been created by Democrats and Republicans? www.verumserum.com/?p=13647Can we also agree that Krugman is a hack (as a columnist) who learned nothing since the last time he tried to use this issue to support his diatribes? |
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Bando
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Post by Bando on Jan 11, 2011 14:02:16 GMT -5
I admit it. I have a friend who is on a city council in Delaware. When we were in college, he used to buy me plenty of drinks when he worked as a bartender. In return, I have pledged my complete support for the Wilmington recycling program. Even though I hate recycling and think a better impact would be achieved through "reduce" and "reuse" programs. I am clearly part of the problem. But he made really, really good drinks. And did I mention they were free? The only two politicians I've ever given money to are: 1. A friend who ran successfully for the state legislature in Wyoming as a Republican. 2. A friend who ran successfully for the house of delegates in Maryland as a Democrat. They're both Hoyas. |
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Jan 11, 2011 14:15:07 GMT -5
The Douthat analysis quoted is insightful, but I guess the question is where we draw the line. Giffords was also the victim of vandalism against her office and other attacks of the sort. I think we owe ourselves to ask why that kind of thing occurs and to condemn it as unacceptable - both sides of the aisle. I'd feel comfortable trading a stop on the left to this militant rhetoric for a stop to it on the right. For the more conservative members on here, if you feel wronged by certain rhetoric, call on your own to condemn their own stuff as well. If you think the trade is fair, why not take it?
The 300%/400% figures that I have put out there are startling, and I do not think they cannot be explained as mere increases in mental illness rates, nor can the fact that politicians are targeted be explained as mental illness alone.
My $.02.
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Post by strummer8526 on Jan 11, 2011 18:56:18 GMT -5
And you could write the opposite finger pointing article citing Loughner's ideas on currency, federalism, the weird "government controlling your grammar" thing and the fact he shot a Democratic congresswoman. It'd be stupid though, because people like him and Sirhan Sirhan do not fall into the political spectrum. "Violence in American politics tends to bubble up from a world that’s far stranger than any Glenn Beck monologue — a murky landscape where worldviews get cobbled together from a host of baroque conspiracy theories, and where the line between ideological extremism and mental illness gets blurry fast. This is the world that gave us Oswald and Bremer. More recently, it’s given us figures like James W. von Brunn, the neo-Nazi who opened fire at the Holocaust Museum in 2009, and James Lee, who took hostages at the Discovery Channel last summer to express his displeasure over population growth. These are figures better analyzed by novelists than pundits: as Walter Kirn put it Saturday, they’re 'self-anointed knights templar of the collective shadow realm, not secular political actors in extremis.'" www.nytimes.com/2011/01/10/opinion/10douthat.html?_r=2&ref=opinionThis seems 100% right. It's still not a reason to stop seeking a more civilized, less slash-and-burn-style of politics. But really, people who do these things are not of any "wing" of any "party." They are almost always totally fringe characters. Can we at least agree that the use political maps with targets over certain political districts did not originate with Sarah Palin and that such maps have been created by Democrats and Republicans? www.verumserum.com/?p=13647Can we also agree that Krugman is a hack (as a columnist) who learned nothing since the last time he tried to use this issue to support his diatribes? I don't remember anyone saying that such maps originated with Sarah Palin or that they are exclusively Republican creations. And I still haven't read or heard a good argument in favor of continuing to use such rhetoric, regardless of that it had nothing to do with what happened in Arizona. |
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Jan 11, 2011 19:04:56 GMT -5
"Violence in American politics tends to bubble up from a world that’s far stranger than any Glenn Beck monologue — a murky landscape where worldviews get cobbled together from a host of baroque conspiracy theories, and where the line between ideological extremism and mental illness gets blurry fast. This is the world that gave us Oswald and Bremer. More recently, it’s given us figures like James W. von Brunn, the neo-Nazi who opened fire at the Holocaust Museum in 2009, and James Lee, who took hostages at the Discovery Channel last summer to express his displeasure over population growth. These are figures better analyzed by novelists than pundits: as Walter Kirn put it Saturday, they’re 'self-anointed knights templar of the collective shadow realm, not secular political actors in extremis.'" www.nytimes.com/2011/01/10/opinion/10douthat.html?_r=2&ref=opinionThis seems 100% right. It's still not a reason to stop seeking a more civilized, less slash-and-burn-style of politics. But really, people who do these things are not of any "wing" of any "party." They are almost always totally fringe characters. Can we at least agree that the use political maps with targets over certain political districts did not originate with Sarah Palin and that such maps have been created by Democrats and Republicans? www.verumserum.com/?p=13647Can we also agree that Krugman is a hack (as a columnist) who learned nothing since the last time he tried to use this issue to support his diatribes? I don't remember anyone saying that such maps originated with Sarah Palin or that they are exclusively Republican creations. And I still haven't read or heard a good argument in favor of continuing to use such rhetoric, regardless of that it had nothing to do with what happened in Arizona. When the blame goes to Palin while ignoring the fact that such graphics have been used many times, that's an issue. And what rhetoric are you talking about. I look at the maps on the link I post and see nothing wrong with them. What's your problem with them? |
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Jan 11, 2011 19:11:47 GMT -5
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Jan 11, 2011 19:14:15 GMT -5
KC - I don't doubt you see no problem with them because you are a rational being and not predisposed to violence. The problem arises when it is viewed by the nutjobs, seasoned criminals, and the like. For this reason, places like prisons restrict the kinds of materials that are available to inmates, for example. Few would disagree that there are reasons to do so, but recent discussion seems to suggest that this kind of rhetoric cannot have an effect. That's incredibly naive, and most wardens would agree.
During the Clinton administration, there was often talk of "what kind of message does it send," particularly around the Lewinsky scandal. Taking the violence issue out of it, is talk of killing opponents, comparisons of leaders to former enemies, M16 meet and greets, etc., the precise message that should be sent?
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Jan 11, 2011 19:58:42 GMT -5
The shooter also was a frequent user of pot. I see no reason why all should not avoid using pot as a precaution against a possible connection to violence. He also played violent video games. I see no reason why all should not avoid playing violent video games as a precaution against a possible connection to violence. If you rebel against my words, they have just as much substance as the attempt to tie this shooter to the political discourse. Only difference is the political agenda.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Jan 11, 2011 20:39:16 GMT -5
KC - I don't doubt you see no problem with them because you are a rational being and not predisposed to violence. The problem arises when it is viewed by the nutjobs, seasoned criminals, and the like. For this reason, places like prisons restrict the kinds of materials that are available to inmates, for example. Few would disagree that there are reasons to do so, but recent discussion seems to suggest that this kind of rhetoric cannot have an effect. That's incredibly naive, and most wardens would agree. During the Clinton administration, there was often talk of "what kind of message does it send," particularly around the Lewinsky scandal. Taking the violence issue out of it, is talk of killing opponents, comparisons of leaders to former enemies, M16 meet and greets, etc., the precise message that should be sent? I agree that one should not advocate the killing of politicians. For example, when Paul Kanjorski said of Rick Scott, "Instead of running for governor of Florida, they ought to have him and shoot him. Put him against the wall and shoot him." That is wrong. However, when the RNC or the DNC is targeting certain districts to win in 2012, I see no problem in putting out a map with target symbols over certain states or districts. Sarah Palin's PAC did it. The Democratic Leadership Committee did it. The DCCC did it. There may not be a bright line, but most can agree that the above categories fall on opposite ends of the spectrum. |
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Post by AustinHoya03 on Jan 11, 2011 23:02:32 GMT -5
"In Phoenix, the State Legislature quickly passed an emergency law to block a controversial church that protests outside funerals from getting too close to the services planned in Tucson. The measure, which keeps protesters 300 feet back from funerals, is intended to head off members of the Westboro Baptist Church in Kansas, who have praised the shooting and plan to picket the funeral on Thursday of Christina Green, a 9-year-old victim, and a service on Friday for Judge John M. Roll of Federal District Court. 'I was physically sick when I heard this,' said State Senator Kyrsten Sinema, who sponsored the measure. 'Then I decided to do something. Nothing happens in one day in politics, but this did. This tragedy is nonpartisan. It’s human.' Community volunteers were mobilizing to plan their own street-side memorial service to counter the protesters, with some planning to wear angel wings." www.nytimes.com/2011/01/12/us/12giffords.html?_r=1&hp |
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Nevada Hoya
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Post by Nevada Hoya on Jan 12, 2011 0:10:43 GMT -5
This sicko church doubly damned Christina, since she was killed by a mass murder AND was a Catholic.  |
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Jan 12, 2011 7:55:46 GMT -5
"What Mr. Loughner knows is that he has the full support of a major political party in this country." —Rush Limbaugh on Dems
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Jan 12, 2011 8:31:55 GMT -5
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Jan 12, 2011 9:00:26 GMT -5
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TC
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Post by TC on Jan 12, 2011 9:33:08 GMT -5
....and Palin has already had to retract her "blood libel" claim. That took what, a half hour?
#thosewhodontlearnfromtheirownhistoryaredoomedtorepeatit
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rosslynhoya
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Post by rosslynhoya on Jan 12, 2011 9:45:23 GMT -5
In 1963 a deranged Marxist assassinated a U.S. president for being too tough on Cuba and the media has been blaming conservatives ever since. I'd say the GOP has finally learned its lesson and, if anything, is only guilty of overcorrection. They need to stay on top of this, and if that requires going a little overboard like Palin did, it's a small price to pay.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Jan 12, 2011 11:24:52 GMT -5
Nice little stab at Krugman at the end. |
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Jan 12, 2011 11:29:27 GMT -5
You shouldn't use that word, kc.
Have you learned nothing?
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Post by strummer8526 on Jan 12, 2011 12:02:10 GMT -5
Who is this Sarah Palin person, what is her position in the world (other than reality TV "star," using the word "star" very loosely there), and why is anyone interested in what she thinks about anything?
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rosslynhoya
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Post by rosslynhoya on Jan 12, 2011 12:46:57 GMT -5
Who is this Sarah Palin person, what is her position in the world (other than reality TV "star," using the word "star" very loosely there), and why is anyone interested in what she thinks about anything? Masquerading as a mildmannered PTA-president-turned-state-governor, Sarah Palin is in reality a diabolic supervillain who -- from her icy palace in Juneau, Alaska -- used the Bush administration's secret government mind control powers to command a pot-smoking mushbrain in Tuscon to begin stalking his local congressperson in 2007, ultimately leading to her inevitable death in 2011. She naturally should be forbidden from refuting these accusations. |
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