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Post by bronxhoya87 on Jan 4, 2011 16:21:25 GMT -5
It certainly didn't surprise me. But it wasn't a lack of desire. It was a lack of fundamental team defensive skills/positioning. Why does this always happen to us? |
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Jan 4, 2011 16:22:19 GMT -5
I would pay lots of money to see someone stand in front of Julian Vaughn and tell him to his face that he doesn't play with heart or desire.
Lots and lots and lots of money.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 4, 2011 16:23:01 GMT -5
It certainly didn't surprise me. But it wasn't a lack of desire. It was a lack of fundamental team defensive skills/positioning. Vaughn helped late when he shouldn't have, no one rotated. Agree. It's not like someone ripped it out of his hands. We outrebounded SJU yesterday, actually, by rebounding %. We just play no defense. And we throw the ball away on O. |
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Post by wahoohoya on Jan 4, 2011 16:23:58 GMT -5
Because the team doesn't know how to play defense and doesn't have the talent to play great individual defense. Nothing about desire in that situation.
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Post by bronxhoya87 on Jan 4, 2011 16:24:57 GMT -5
I would pay lots of money for someone who is a non boxer to tell a guy who is 0-38 as a pro boxer that he cant fight.
Sadly Julian is not judged against non athletes he is judged by his athletic peers.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 4, 2011 16:25:20 GMT -5
It certainly didn't surprise me. But it wasn't a lack of desire. It was a lack of fundamental team defensive skills/positioning. Why does this always happen to us? We've had four close games this year -- Temple, SJU, Mizzou and ODU. We're 2-2. Not my ideal, and we should have won last night especially, for 1,000 reasons... But it's not weird we're 50-50 in close games. They were close for a reason. |
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Post by bronxhoya87 on Jan 4, 2011 16:26:21 GMT -5
Talent to play D.....that falls on the staff. He needs to recruit better. That is what Bronxie has been saying for years now. You guys fought me then what says you now?
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 4, 2011 16:33:25 GMT -5
Talent to play D.....that falls on the staff. He needs to recruit better. That is what Bronxie has been saying for years now. You guys fought me then what says you now? I think the primary talent deficiency on D is height. I don't think anyone disagrees that we've had a couple of years where we've missed that. Hopefully the slew of big men coming in helps to fix that. As for perimeter D -- well, we had much better D with Jon Wallace out -- so I don't think it's all tools here. We had much better defenses with slower guys. Reality is, most perimeter defenders can't keep a guy in front of them. It's about help and people in the middle. |
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Jan 4, 2011 16:42:37 GMT -5
Talent to play D.....that falls on the staff. He needs to recruit better. That is what Bronxie has been saying for years now. You guys fought me then what says you now? I think the primary talent deficiency on D is height. I don't think anyone disagrees that we've had a couple of years where we've missed that. Hopefully the slew of big men coming in helps to fix that. As for perimeter D -- well, we had much better D with Jon Wallace out -- so I don't think it's all tools here. We had much better defenses with slower guys. Reality is, most perimeter defenders can't keep a guy in front of them. It's about help and people in the middle. Agreed 100%. We've beaten it to death but I have no idea why we continue to play defense like we have Roy Hibbert. It's absolutely baffling. We started to press vs Utah St and I was excited at the prospect of us getting in some passing lanes and turning our opponents over. Instead we went right back to the same nonsense. Retreat to as deep into the halfcourt as possible, don't even think about forcing a turnover, and then play D for 30 seconds until our opponent scores over our undersized frontcourt. |
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Post by wahoohoya on Jan 4, 2011 16:49:48 GMT -5
You can always recruit better. But I don't fault the coach for that - he seems like he is putting in the work there and the team has solid prospects going forward.
Bottom line - I don't disagree that this team plays soft at times and without max intensity - and that certainly is on the coach. If this team turns out to struggle to make the NCAA's and/or craps out in the first round, it should be viewed as a massive coaching failure, but we're not there yet.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Jan 4, 2011 16:51:02 GMT -5
Or zips past our perimeter D.
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Jan 4, 2011 18:09:43 GMT -5
Fan criticism is perfectly legitimate after a real choke like last night and no one--no one-- suffers more from a loss than I do. But we are still talking about a work-in-progress. Let's not accept half-ass like last night at times, but let's also not kill them off completely. If you really believe that this is a soft team with limited talent and a coach who cannot recruit or make adjustments, then save yourself the frustration and stop worrying about wins and losses with this group, because this team will only break your heart. On the other hand, if your expectations, like mine, were that this was a flawed team--absent Monroe and a proven bench--then you still have hope for improvement. We were picked 4th in the Big East for a reason and the initial reults were encouraging, though there were warning signs in each of the victories--such as the inability of the posts to score and the over-reliance upon the gurads for offense. I do not question the comments or motives of any poster and accept the critiques as honest and for the most part valid. However, enough with the beat down. Freeman played poorly. Clark has played poorly lately. Chris is always one out of control drive away from breaking your heart. Vaughn played his best game last night with more to come--I hope. Hollis was very good and so were Lubick and Sims. JT III was guilty of showing way too much loyalty to his veteran leaders throughout the second half--not a sign of a bad coach, but very common among the best coaches. Let's accept this last week for what it was--clear evidence that the team is not as good as we had hoped, but let's avoid a complete meltdown with every loss. There will be several more and yet in the end this team could still develop into one that no one wants to play.
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757hoyafan
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Post by 757hoyafan on Jan 4, 2011 19:08:48 GMT -5
Ghostface from the Wu... lol |
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NCHoya
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Post by NCHoya on Jan 4, 2011 19:19:27 GMT -5
I think we all recognize that the last offensive rebound was clearly not the result of poor boxing out or hustle; it was the result of Clark being allowed to guard a guy he simply could not keep up with causing a cluster of Hoyas late to help leaving the rim wide open for a O board. If Julian did not try to help and SJU makes the initial lay-up attempt, that would have been a lack of hustle, desire and much worse.
I think we are now seeing all the early season faults come out from this team. We have one legit post player who has played admirably and gotten better each year, but JV has no help. Henry is not a post player at all, but he is 6'11" and has skill, just not in the paint. Thankfully we are bringing in some height, but JT3, as hard as he tries on the recruiting trail, just could not land another big to pair with JV.
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Post by bronxhoya87 on Jan 4, 2011 20:17:39 GMT -5
Fan criticism is perfectly legitimate after a real choke like last night and no one--no one-- suffers more from a loss than I do. But we are still talking about a work-in-progress. Let's not accept half-ass like last night at times, but let's also not kill them off completely. If you really believe that this is a soft team with limited talent and a coach who cannot recruit or make adjustments, then save yourself the frustration and stop worrying about wins and losses with this group, because this team will only break your heart. On the other hand, if your expectations, like mine, were that this was a flawed team--absent Monroe and a proven bench--then you still have hope for improvement. We were picked 4th in the Big East for a reason and the initial reults were encouraging, though there were warning signs in each of the victories--such as the inability of the posts to score and the over-reliance upon the gurads for offense. I do not question the comments or motives of any poster and accept the critiques as honest and for the most part valid. However, enough with the beat down. Freeman played poorly. Clark has played poorly lately. Chris is always one out of control drive away from breaking your heart. Vaughn played his best game last night with more to come--I hope. Hollis was very good and so were Lubick and Sims. JT III was guilty of showing way too much loyalty to his veteran leaders throughout the second half--not a sign of a bad coach, but very common among the best coaches. Let's accept this last week for what it was--clear evidence that the team is not as good as we had hoped, but let's avoid a complete meltdown with every loss. There will be several more and yet in the end this team could still develop into one that no one wants to play. Here is the thing losing on the road to a ranked ND is no big deal. Losing to a trashy with no discernible home court advantage St Johns is. St Johns' offensive philosophy does not exist. To lose to a school yard team is disheartening. |
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LeRoyHoya
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Post by LeRoyHoya on Jan 4, 2011 20:26:34 GMT -5
St. John's may have been "school yard" in the past, but they are well coached now. Lavin and Keady have their boys playing well. Don't confuse "school yard" with just flat out gettin after people. I have to admit that I am very encouraghed by Julian's play last night. We need that type of effort from him every night. I love watching a guy go after every rebound like it's life or death.
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Post by bronxhoya87 on Jan 4, 2011 20:42:05 GMT -5
Where was Julian in the first 20 minutes? Counting on Julian is futile like the rest of the team his energy is hit or miss.
Dont make St Johns out to be a good team. They have zero offensive sets or identity.
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LeRoyHoya
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Post by LeRoyHoya on Jan 4, 2011 23:20:51 GMT -5
Funny, I've coached basketball for a number of years and I was pretty sure I saw some offensive sets. With Keady helping Lavin, I'm guessing they have a little more structure than the past. Their identity, how about 3-0 in conference for an identity. Bad game for us, but this isn't the same St. John's that beat us twice during Summer's swan song.
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harlemhoya
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Post by harlemhoya on Jan 4, 2011 23:31:35 GMT -5
Mike Dunlap is the offensive coordinator for the Johnnies
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Jan 5, 2011 1:12:37 GMT -5
Mike Dunlap is the offensive coordinator for the Johnnies Yep--and he's a damn good one. He uses the NBA approach (work on finding the mismatch and go at the opponent) which is a simple one but effective. Great point on the team/pressing. To me--this team is far more active/aggressive on defensive end when they press. Wright/Clark are better as "free safeties" then they are on the ball and the team just has more aggression. It sets a tempo and brings the urgency that for whatever reason III cannot get out of them in the halfcourt or overall. I've been severely disappointed with III's stubborn attitude towards ignoring what works, use of bench, and forcing things that don't work on players. Nobody in their right mind would watch this group play and say "Let's sit back, play man to man, and have Jason Clark get up on Dwight Hardy". III did. III played a lot of the guys, pressed, did a lot of things in non conference--he gets to conference play and does the same stupid crap that has this team floating under .500 the past 2 years. That is just stupidity. To do things that don't work is being stubborn but to keep doing them when you have seen doing it another way works for this particular group--well I've lost faith/hope in him as a coach. Coaches job is to put the group he has to work with in the best position to win games. That means some years you have to alter your style--and in college-if you want to do things a certain way-recruit to that system. I'm all for whatever you want to do--but I detest anyone who is so bullheaded and arrogant they force things that don't work when things that do work are out there for everyone to see. It's on Thompson--NOT THE PLAYERS. He needs to "Fix it". He needs to watch the damn tapes of games and ask himself what the hell he's doing--because he's failed the team--not the other way around. He talks of missed shots--well it's basketball-that will happen in any system/season--but the personnel decisions, playing time, style of defense that fits team, is all on him. If he refuses to do this--he deserves to lose games and get a lot more criticism. It starts/stops with him--and college coaches are some of the biggest control freaks on the planet--but the guys who win championships are not afraid to adapt to what they have/understand what they don't have. III's yet to prove that he gets it this year in Big East play and with numerous evidence that shows how this group is best suited to play. GET IT FIXED |
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