New Roman Missal

[DFW HOYA]

For those of you in churches with older missals which look like they were published in the 1970's, look for new books in all the pews next year: the endless debate over Roman Missal changes has finally been decided, with a launch date of November 2011.

The short answer: it's changes in original translations which are closer to the pre-1970 English language prayers of the Mass, such as the common "and also with you" response" being deprecated for the phrase "and with your spirit".

Somehow, this kind of change isn't going to sit well at Holy Trinity Church...

www.getreligion.org/?p=41546

[SFHoya99]

I'd say I have to agree with the critics. Using big words and vague rephrasings isn't going to get people to think differently, and it's kind of pointless to change ritualistic words.

[theexorcist]

Aug 25, 2010 10:26:47 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

I'd say I have to agree with the critics. Using big words and vague rephrasings isn't going to get people to think differently, and it's kind of pointless to change ritualistic words.

One of the things I like about travel is going to Mass. The accents may be different, what they talk about may be different (though, in Perth, the homily included a reference to "three strikes", so maybe not), but what you're doing is the same. One of the impressive things is thinking that, for centuries, people have done the same thing.

Going back to a more literal translation of the original wording provides an even closer link to the original celebrants, especially since the original writers knew and walked with Christ. If Christ said something closer to "and with your spirit" than "and also with you", it sounds like a good thing to switch to, even though it sounds slightly more awkard.

[hoopsmccan]

I wish this thread was in the recruiting forum...Roman Missal would be a great name for player.

I have nothing substantive to add.

hm

[SFHoya99]

Aug 25, 2010 11:49:07 GMT -5 theexorcist said:

Aug 25, 2010 10:26:47 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

I'd say I have to agree with the critics. Using big words and vague rephrasings isn't going to get people to think differently, and it's kind of pointless to change ritualistic words.

One of the things I like about travel is going to Mass. The accents may be different, what they talk about may be different (though, in Perth, the homily included a reference to "three strikes", so maybe not), but what you're doing is the same. One of the impressive things is thinking that, for centuries, people have done the same thing.

Going back to a more literal translation of the original wording provides an even closer link to the original celebrants, especially since the original writers knew and walked with Christ. If Christ said something closer to "and with your spirit" than "and also with you", it sounds like a good thing to switch to, even though it sounds slightly more awkard.

I can see how you'd think it's neat. When you phrase it that way, it sounds cool. Although there's absolutely no way to actually get a literal quote from Jesus or really understand a translation from an era in which English didn't exist.

That all said, changing the words in such a manner is frankly a nasty and annoying change management issue. So if you do it, shouldn't it be for a really worthwhile reason?

I don't think "and with your spirit" or using words like "oblation" are clear to anyone. They aren't getting across an idea better than before, and definitely not to your average Catholic.

If you thought the right message wasn't getting across, and were going to change it to something clearer and more compelling, kudos. This isn't that. It's almost like they were trying to make it harder to get the message.

[theexorcist]

Is there a player who doesn't have a nickname? Or can we recruit an Italian?

To SFS - in addition to the "same stuff that people heard a thousand years ago", there's a separate item on what words mean. Pope Benedict's been pretty emphatic that the current wordings of the Mass had gotten away from the original (he's also been a big proponent of Latin Masses, which moves one back even closer to the Aramaic and Greek).

Let's take "oblation" and "offering". Oblation, as defined, emphasizes the solemnity and the fact that the item is going to God - offering, in general, derives from "offer", which sounds much more like a "give some to get some" prospect. If you think about the words, there's a slight difference between them. And since philosophy and theology spend so much time on words and their meaning, trying to get things more "right" every fifty or so years doesn't seem excessive (I recall that Islam considers Korans that aren't in Arabic to be unofficial, since Muhammad wrote the Koran in Arabic - a case where it's assumed that a 99.999% translation isn't good enough).

The Church always goes through making Mass meaningful and making it accessible - what's being proposed seems pretty low-key.

[Boz]

People who go to services on a regular basis will have no problem picking up on the changes being made.

People who are just discovering the church or beginning regular attendance similarly will have no problem, since they'll just be picking this up and there won't be any confusion with older translations.


And then, there are people like me, who are going to wonder what the heck "ignominy" means for many, many years (no matter how many times we experience its definition).

[SFHoya99]

I'd venture to say less than 1% of Americans know what the word oblation means, and would get the subtlety. If that.

If you want people to understand a subtlety, explain it. Don't use big words. Church is an hour long -- going back to Latin or using words no one uses isn't helping anyone get closer to God.

[Boz]

I imagine many if not most priests will take advantage of opportunities to discuss the changes and subtleties of meaning with their parishoners in homilies or other forums. Thus, you know, perhaps making their congregation feel closer to the church.

[SFHoya99]

Aug 25, 2010 18:14:54 GMT -5 Boz said:

I imagine many if not most priests will take advantage of opportunities to discuss the changes and subtleties of meaning with their parishoners in homilies or other forums. Thus, you know, perhaps making their congregation feel closer to the church.

Maybe. But I doubt it gets through.

I'm still struggling to see where this is going to improve anything. I deal with change management and communication all the time, and it's simply not the way to drive comprehension. It's pretty much the textbook opposite of what to do.

To me, religion is a complicated thing. At it's best, it's something that teeters on the edge of human thinking. At it's very heart, you're trying to understand something that many religions claim to be unknowable.

And most priests I know are really not capable of communicating that well to large groups (or, to be honest, small groups). Outside of Georgetown, very few priests I've met really communicate well.

It's a tough enough road to connect with people without adding complicated words, etc.

If it's going to take this long to change, it would have been nice to make the message more accessible, not less.

[Boz]

Well, at least they didn't go with "Catholicism WOW!"

[SFHoya99]

I don't know, Buddy Christ was awesome.

[Nevada Hoya]

I'm waiting for the Mass to go back to Aramaic.

[DrumsGoBang]

In my church books are strictly forbidden. We also don't wear pants....

[kghoya]

Aug 25, 2010 13:54:12 GMT -5 hoopsmccan said:

I wish this thread was in the recruiting forum...Roman Missal would be a great name for player.

I have nothing substantive to add.

hm

The Hoyas lead for him early but after Cox left he added a few random schools and is going to end up at Syracuse.

[strummer8526]

Aug 26, 2010 21:49:43 GMT -5 kghoya said:

Aug 25, 2010 13:54:12 GMT -5 hoopsmccan said:

I wish this thread was in the recruiting forum...Roman Missal would be a great name for player.

I have nothing substantive to add.

hm

The Hoyas lead for him early but after Cox left he added a few random schools and is going to end up at Syracuse.

Also, "Missal" sounds more like a SG, and we really need to add some quality bigs with names like Vulgate Saint Jerome.

[theexorcist]

Aug 25, 2010 18:25:00 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

Aug 25, 2010 18:14:54 GMT -5 Boz said:

I imagine many if not most priests will take advantage of opportunities to discuss the changes and subtleties of meaning with their parishoners in homilies or other forums. Thus, you know, perhaps making their congregation feel closer to the church.

Maybe. But I doubt it gets through.

I'm still struggling to see where this is going to improve anything. I deal with change management and communication all the time, and it's simply not the way to drive comprehension. It's pretty much the textbook opposite of what to do.

To me, religion is a complicated thing. At it's best, it's something that teeters on the edge of human thinking. At it's very heart, you're trying to understand something that many religions claim to be unknowable.

And most priests I know are really not capable of communicating that well to large groups (or, to be honest, small groups). Outside of Georgetown, very few priests I've met really communicate well.

It's a tough enough road to connect with people without adding complicated words, etc.

If it's going to take this long to change, it would have been nice to make the message more accessible, not less.

This just seems like a cop-out - religion is hard, so let's dumb it down. It's like a newspaper putting in more infographics rather than spending money on better reporting.

[SFHoya99]

Dumbing it down and explaining things clearly are completely different. Having a strong vocabulary or knowing Latin should not be a prerequisite to know your religion.

[kchoya]

Wait, I thought this thread was about the Vatican developing a ICBM.