DC "Elites" Out Of Touch?

[DFW HOYA]

So says Politico.com.

"The poll highlights in dramatic terms the stark contrasts between D.C. elites and the American people, as D.C. elites are far more isolated from the economic crisis and yet far more plugged into other issues,” said Mark Penn, CEO of Penn Schoen Berland and a veteran Democratic pollster.

www.politico.com/news/stories/0710/39809.html

[WilsonBlvdHoya]

Dog Bites Man story here, DFW. But I'd take the DC-take on future of Tea Party over that of the general public; course, I'm an "elite" by the poll definition!

I thought this NYT op-ed by Douthat was far more compelling this morning around elite vs. plebeian differences in higher-ed. He's essentially arguing for Affirmative Action for Cletus!! Don't agree with it at all (when more future ROTC cadets and aspiring farmers post more competitive academic applications, you'll see more of them gracing ivy halls) but I see his cultural point...

www.nytimes.com/2010/07/19/opinion/19douthat.html?hp

[TC]

Mark Penn's next poll: In general, do you like high taxes?

[theexorcist]

Jul 19, 2010 11:17:02 GMT -5 WilsonBlvdHoya said:

Dog Bites Man story here, DFW. But I'd take the DC-take on future of Tea Party over that of the general public; course, I'm an "elite" by the poll definition!

I thought this NYT op-ed by Douthat was far more compelling this morning around elite vs. plebeian differences in higher-ed. He's essentially arguing for Affirmative Action for Cletus!! Don't agree with it at all (when more future ROTC cadets and aspiring farmers post more competitive academic applications, you'll see more of them gracing ivy halls) but I see his cultural point...

www.nytimes.com/2010/07/19/opinion/19douthat.html?hp

First thing. It's FFA, not Future Farmers of America. They changed the name in 1988.

Second thing. Why should aspiring ROTC cadets and farmers need to start showing better grades and more rigorous transcripts than those from inner city LA or Chicago? What if they're stuck in a failing school?

Appalachia suffers from a situation that's as bad as any inner city. But meth gets derided as hillbilly heroin, and the Post's feature this weekend on obesity - similar levels to the inner city - derides the poor there for their lack of self-control while decrying the evils of fast-food restaurants in Southeast.

Among the intellectual liberal elite, I can't help but shake the belief that there's a fundamental belief that poor blacks are poor because of the system, and poor whites are poor because they're stupid.

[DFW HOYA]

Jul 19, 2010 11:17:02 GMT -5 WilsonBlvdHoya said:

I thought this NYT op-ed by Douthat was far more compelling this morning around elite vs. plebeian differences in higher-ed. He's essentially arguing for Affirmative Action for Cletus!! Don't agree with it at all (when more future ROTC cadets and aspiring farmers post more competitive academic applications, you'll see more of them gracing ivy halls) but I see his cultural point...

www.nytimes.com/2010/07/19/opinion/19douthat.html?hp

You've heard this from me before, of course, but schools like GU tend to skew to admissions pools it is comfortable with and less so on national representation, particularly between I-5 and I-95, Chicago excepted. Why isn't a president of the FFA or the Beta Club be just as valuable as the prep school's resume fillers?

Also a part of this discussion: religion. Eastern colleges will recruit from a segment of the population that "fits" its profile (mainline Protestant, Catholic, Jewish (but not orthodox), Islamic (but not orthodox), and the unchurched) but the percentage of evangelical and LDS students are inversely disproprotionate to its national numbers.

There are more than twice as many LDS in the U.S. as Jews and nearly three times that of Episcopalians. Are Eastern schools intimidated by the stereotypes of evangelical and LDS students, or are simply not reaching out to the best students from these faiths; then, rationalizing it by saying "well, they didn't want to go here anyway"? Either way, both sides miss the opportunity to learn from each other.

[WilsonBlvdHoya]

Exorcist, many view this, fairly or not, through the prism of the multi- generational legacy of slavery. The "wage-slave" or, perhaps more accurately, "crop-slave" from Appalachia could at least buy into the myth that he was "free" to pull up and start over somewhere else or somehow educate himself for a better life (granted many African-Americans did just that in the migrations northward to Chicago and other cities).

What true educational/upwardly mobile options did the great majority of African-Americans have in this country until the mid-to-late 20th Century (other than HBCUs)?!?! Very few even in comparison to the poorest of whites...

[jerseyhoya34]

Jul 19, 2010 11:53:35 GMT -5 theexorcist said:

Among the intellectual liberal elite, I can't help but shake the belief that there's a fundamental belief that poor blacks are poor because of the system, and poor whites are poor because they're stupid.

I don't think blaming liberal elites is the right way to go here. Be that as it may, there are affirmative action programs/consideration available to white people. There is also a de facto affirmative action program that is widely used by whites - it is called legacy admission.

Recall the UMICH case of a few years ago - certain applicants were eligible for a 20 point bonus on their scale based on race (Hispanics, African-Americans, and Native Americans). What we didn't hear as much about was the bonus given to legacy candidates - up to 4 points. Why is something like that ok or deserved (or not called out to even a modest degree from the right)?

[theexorcist]

Jul 19, 2010 13:03:29 GMT -5 @jerseyhoya34 said:

Jul 19, 2010 11:53:35 GMT -5 theexorcist said:

Among the intellectual liberal elite, I can't help but shake the belief that there's a fundamental belief that poor blacks are poor because of the system, and poor whites are poor because they're stupid.

I don't think blaming liberal elites is the right way to go here. Be that as it may, there are affirmative action programs/consideration available to white people. There is also a de facto affirmative action program that is widely used by whites - it is called legacy admission.

The focus of my questions are not legacies. It's poor whites, who receive little or no concern from anyone and who are belittled as rednecks and racist dullards.

[jerseyhoya34]

Unfortunately, statistical research does show that certain racial thinking prevails among certain demographic groups. So, it is difficult to explain that issue away as non-existent. Does it describe everyone? Absolutely not and do not mean to suggest that.

My guess as well is that the applications of certain of these groups are not as strong on paper as what you would find in the application pool generally. So, it may be misguided to think that admission rates should be on par between your CT private school and a public school in Appalachia. That is not the fault of universities seeking a strong admission pool. It is a fault of state governments for not having strong schools, government generally if there is indeed a need for special consideration for rural applicants, and the students for not having strong applications.

My memory from applying to schools also suggests that certain consideration is given based on geographic diversity. My hunch is that candidates with certain numbers who live in certain areas (like a NJ) won't do as well as someone with equivalent numbers from a Rust Belt state or less competitive area. Is that slot going to the son of a farmer? I have no idea.

That being said, I agree that affirmative action would be more effective if applied based on socioeconomics. No question there. I don't see that as the fault of liberals that such a program is not available. There's been plenty of opportunity for conservatives as well to offer it up.

Any effort to do this is bound to fail if it devolves into the tired "Welfare Queen" kind of arguments that frequently arise when conservatives bemoan the programs, effective and otherwise, that are available to African-Americans.

[TC]

Jul 19, 2010 12:53:23 GMT -5 DFW HOYA said:

Also a part of this discussion: religion. Eastern colleges will recruit from a segment of the population that "fits" its profile (mainline Protestant, Catholic, Jewish (but not orthodox), Islamic (but not orthodox), and the unchurched) but the percentage of evangelical and LDS students are inversely disproprotionate to its national numbers.

How good a fit is Georgetown for an LDS student? Crazy alcohol party scene, DC temple isn't metro-accessible and students don't get to keep cars, really small LDS student population, early marriage not really compatible with DC, not sure what the school's policy on missions is.

[theexorcist]

Quoth JerseyHoya: "My guess as well is that the applications of certain of these groups are not as strong on paper as what you would find in the application pool generally. So, it may be misguided to think that admission rates should be on par between your CT private school and a public school in Appalachia. That is not the fault of universities seeking a strong admission pool. It is a fault of state governments for not having strong schools, government generally if there is indeed a need for special consideration for rural applicants, and the students for not having strong applications. "

The problem with this is that I think you'd change your tune quickly if the school in question was Ballou. It's a slap in the face to tell a student at Ballou - or a student from the foothills of Kentucky - that they don't have a strong applicatiion if their school sucks.

If Harvard wants the strongest applicant pool, they can stop admitting legacies who spell the name of their rival with a "6" and people from poor-performing schools, no matter what their gender or school location. If they truly want a community that is diverse, then they owe it to themselves to set aside some spaces for poor rural whites.

[theexorcist]

Jul 19, 2010 13:22:29 GMT -5 TC said:

Jul 19, 2010 12:53:23 GMT -5 DFW HOYA said:

Also a part of this discussion: religion. Eastern colleges will recruit from a segment of the population that "fits" its profile (mainline Protestant, Catholic, Jewish (but not orthodox), Islamic (but not orthodox), and the unchurched) but the percentage of evangelical and LDS students are inversely disproprotionate to its national numbers.

How good a fit is Georgetown for an LDS student? Crazy alcohol party scene, DC temple isn't metro-accessible and students don't get to keep cars, really small LDS student population, early marriage not really compatible with DC, not sure what the school's policy on missions is.

I think that part of DFW Hoya's question would be what exists to make the environment more accommodating rather than just write it off as difficult for the students in question. Providing a shuttle to and from temple, and examining the policy on married students and one-year absences. This is similar to ensuring that there's kosher or halal food and access to appropriate places of worship.

None of these are antithetical to the Georgetown mission.

[jerseyhoya34]

I doubt very highly that Harvard can set aside spaces and does set aside spaces for African-Americans. That is a misconception about affirmative action.

I would be surprised if Ballou graduates were taking spots at schools from the grasp of rural folks in Kentucky. I am now reading an article about Ballou's salutatorian, who will enroll in the fall at Penn State. Just as a gut reaction, that seems about right and would be surprised if a salutatorian at a HS in the foothills of Kentucky could not find an opportunity at UK or some equivalent in the area.

[DFW HOYA]

Jul 19, 2010 13:22:29 GMT -5 TC said:

How good a fit is Georgetown for an LDS student? Crazy alcohol party scene, DC temple isn't metro-accessible and students don't get to keep cars, really small LDS student population, early marriage not really compatible with DC, not sure what the school's policy on missions is.

Are DC people really that insular about LDS people?

• For years, there has been an active LDS community in, of all places, Las Vegas--the legend was that the early casino owners preferred hiring Mormons because they were not going to steal. If they can make it in Vegas, DC would be no problem. (It certainly isn't a problem for 16 members of Congress, incl. the Senate Majority Leader.)
  
• Small student population? In the Northeast, yes, but larger nationally. But the point is that if Georgetown is "welcoming" to some populations, it certainly could extend the same amenities to people that haven't been as welcome and as proportionate within the student body. Remember, there were times when other faiths weren't considered a typical "Joe Hoya", either.
  
• Early marriage? A BYU study showed the average LDS male marries at 23, females at 21. Not that big an issue for evangelicals, either.
  

Obviosuly, no one is going to mistake Georgetown for BYU or Liberty U., but as evangelical and LDS populations to continue to outpace the mainline Protestant denominations, dismissing their belief structure as unnecessary to the Georgetown experience limits Georgetown's outreach to (and from) these communities.

[PhillyHoya]

I knew a couple LDS students at GU and they had no problems really. They did their missions by taking time off and went to parties like everyone else.

[RusskyHoya]

I feel compelled to mention at this point that Georgetown does, in fact, take socio-economic circumstances - particularly first-generation to go to college - into account in admissions. This applies to Caucasian students as well.