D-Day

[hoyaalf]

Hi,

At this precise moment sixty-six years ago, if I have it figured right, troopers of the 101st A/B were just finishing their jump, and troopers of the 82nd were soon to begin.

Something you may not know is that the drops were so widely dispersed, "disorderly", that the Germans were completely confused. They wouldn't have done it that way. Of course, the extra-large # of casualities among the French civilian pop. in the PDC fooled them too. They didn't think we were mean enough to do that as part of a ruse. Wrong again, Adolf. The French bombing casualties in Normandy were
also substantial.

After 24 hours on the ground only about a third of the a/b troops were in the command and control net. Those free-lancers remaining fought in mixed groups of inter-mingled companies, battalions, regts., and even in some cases, divisions.

D-Day, as my very youthful neighbor, 87 year-old Warren Hamer who served on an LST, reticent as most vets. once said, it was " a good win."

Lest we forget, tomoirrow is also an anniversary of the Marine Corps Brigade's gallantry at Belleau Wood in WW I. Marines often get fussy about, "D-Day" since they too used the term in the Cent. Pac.

[My mother used to say that, "comparisons are invidious." Sorry, mom.]

Then again, they didn't put ashore 160,00 troops in a day. Here's another surprise to most. Air Force losses in preparation alone for D-Day exceeded losses of most USMC operations.

But they were ALL something special in the collective, and in many cases, magnificent in groups.

In this case it is appropriate to say, "Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori."

[TBird41]

Jun 5, 2010 19:43:11 GMT -5 hoyaalf said:

Here's another surprise to most. Air Force losses in preparation alone for D-Day exceeded losses of most USMC operations.

This isn't meant as a slight to the USMC, but to piggy back on this point, the US Army Air Corps (remember, they didn't become the Air Force until 1947) lost more men in their European bombing campaigns then the USMC lost in total. If one questions the need for Air Superiority (not trying to ignite any debates on how to get it), that fact should persuade you that it is absolutely vital.

[hoyaalf]

Not to slight EITHER the USMC or the USAAF/USAF, but it not news that a persuasive case can be made BOTH those campaigns were poor returns on investment.

I will slight the Joint Chiefs for not dropping the Cent Pac campaign while simultaneously dropping MacArthur as CIC,SWPA, bringing home the entire Pacific high command while promoting Spruance, Kruger, etc. and firmly directing them to push the enemy on the south to north axis depriving them of lines of communication, to the resources for which they went to war. The USN should have targeted enemy shipping far earlier than it did.

My bottom line: the best infantry troops in the Pacific theater, the USMC, were ill used by their naval masters.

[The Stig]

Jun 5, 2010 22:28:48 GMT -5 hoyaalf said:

Not to slight EITHER the USMC or the USAAF/USAF, but it not news that a persuasive case can be made BOTH those campaigns were poor returns on investment.

I will slight the Joint Chiefs for not dropping the Cent Pac campaign while simultaneously dropping MacArthur as CIC,SWPA, bringing home the entire Pacific high command while promoting Spruance, Kruger, etc. and firmly directing them to push the enemy on the south to north axis depriving them of lines of communication, to the resources for which they went to war. The USN should have targeted enemy shipping far earlier than it did.

My bottom line: the best infantry troops in the Pacific theater, the USMC, were ill used by their naval masters.

There's a lot of American submariners who would vehemently disagree with that statement. American subs were departing for patrols off the Japanese coast within a week of Pearl Harbor. Throughout the war they sank over 1500 enemy ships, and would have sunk hundreds more if it weren't for massive blunders in Washington (faulty torpedoes and a Congressman leaking vital tactical information). The submarine offensive did exactly what you suggested - cut off Japanese outposts from communications and supplies, while simultaneously cutting off the Japanese homeland from the natural resources it needed to fight the war.

Getting back to Normandy, the bravery and sacrifice of those soldiers not only paved the way for the liberation of Europe from Nazism, but also enabled the Allies to protect Western Europeans from Stalin after the Nazis had been crushed.

But most of those men weren't thinking about the grand strategic implications of their actions. They were just trying to get the job done, keep their buddies alive, and get back home. They were ordinary men who performed extraordinary feats so those at home could continue living ordinary lives.

[EasyEd]

As a kid I remember seeing newsreels at the theatre showing the war in Europe before the US entered the war. What was shown was destruction and human misery on a large scale. On December 7, 1941 when my older brother heard we were now in the war he cried bitterly since he thought that destruction and misery were coming to us.

In the months that followed, despite continual bad news from both Europe and the Pacific, there was a complete confidence that the Allies ultimately would triumph and we eagerly awaited the coming of a "second front", the first of which was the Russian front. D-Day was extreme jubiliation to the nation, the feeling the end was nearing.

The news we received during and after Normandy was "filtered", slanted far in the optimistic vein. Not until later did we learn the extent of the German resistance or of the enormous casualties the Allies suffered that day and the days that followed.

On this anniversary of D-Day I feel a return of that pride in America I felt that day, along with the recollection of the feeling that we would win because we were America.

[Nevada Hoya]

I was born two months and four days after D-Day, but my father was over in England during D-Day and he embarked over to France several days after the initial assault. I think this is a good day to remember both the soldiers, who gave their lives on D-Day, and also those soldiers, who survived, but are now gone. These are true heroes.

[hoyaalf]

Stig, I have data on the sub issue from a crtique of the entire WWII Allied leadership called, "Brute Force." I will dig it out. Great point about Stalin. The irony is that he demanded it of us once again demonstrating that dictators get it wrong.

Since I invoked my neighbor's name, I sent him my text. He replied:

Thanks for mentioning my tour of duty aboard LST 212. A minor correction,however. I will be 90 on June 23, Regarding my reticence, I will be happy to recall life aboard my LST to anyone who will listen. I will include the history of the "Battle for the Atlantic Ocean" for free.

Cherish these folks if you know one. Go find one if you don't. Get involved in, "Honor Flight." My community devotes resources to it.

And as one who has spent many lonely holidays in VA hospitals, find a way to visit one. It beats college football on Sat. afternoon.

[SirSaxa]

two interesting reads --one was made into an excellent HBO miniseries.
Band of Brothers by Stephen Ambrose. This book recounts the story of Easy Company in the 101st Airborne in Europe. Their initial engagement began in the very early morning of D-Day when they were dropped over Normandy. The book is well researched and also well-written. The HBO series, which also includes interviews of surviving members of Easy Company in the present day, gives a good sense of what it was like for those guys.

The other book was written by a German Submarine officer and is an account of the U-Boat war in the N. Atlantic from the German POV. www.amazon.com/Iron-Coffins-Personal-Account-Battles/dp/030681160X
I gave a copy to my step-father who sailed on many convoys that were targets of the U-Boats. Pretty amazing story. The U-Boats had overwhelming success early, but British and American Tactics, technology, code breaking, industrial strength and shear guts and bravery eventually turned the U-Boat war completely in the Allies favor. Author Hubert Werner was one of the very few U-Boat officers who survived the war.

For those who may not know, D-Day, along with H-Hour are among commonly used military terms for all kinds of events. Each invasion had its D-Day and H-Hour. But the one on June 6th, 1944, was of such overwhelming significance that the term stuck and, for many, D-Day refers only to that one date.

[hoyaalf]

In "Iron Coffins," Werner whom I believe died in New Jersey at his daughter's home, tells an interesting story about meeting his first American , or "ami' as our troops were called. He was ashore when a U. S. fighter pilot who was shot down in the area was brought in. He was a mess, but his attitude was so cocky that Werner's morale was shaken for the first time. The kid was being mocked by his captors.

"You will lose, ami."

"No," replied the bloodied American as he smoked a cigarette, saying something like "we will win. There are thousands and thousands more of us being trained as we speak. They have great planes being manufactured day and night all over America."

The kid, and kid he was. was so arrogant the German boot commandant started to worry.

[hoyainspirit]

While my dad did not participate in the D-Day invasion, he did serve in Italy, France, and Africa, and was a member of the famed "Red Ball Express" during its brief existence. As a child, I asked my dad many times to tell me stories of the war. He always refused. As an adult, after my mom passed, I found a shoe box full of letters that he sent to her during his military service. He described some truly harrowing encounters, several of which almost cost him his life. Like many, I guess I'm lucky to be here. After reading those letters, I understood why my dad did not like to talk about WWII. Those letters represent one of my worst losses to Katrina. I often used to wonder if I could have done the deeds of that greatest generation of Americans. Sadly, in my mind, I come up short.

[SSHoya]

My father was not part of D-Day invasion but was in France, Germany, after the invasion and was part of the Berlin occupation through 1947. MSgt in the US Army. His federal career ended shortly after being choppered off the roof of the US Embassy in Saigon, April 30, 1975, employed by OGA. That was the zenith and nadir of the US foreign policy in the 20th century in some respects. Also never talked about WWII, and fairly bitter about the US termination of its involvement in Vietnam, the way it was done, and the fact that we reneged on our promises to the "locals' in South Vietnam who were truly at risk after the communist takeover. Sophomore year at Georgetown we had a family of South Vietnamese refugees living in the basement of our house. My father and mother sponsored them out of a refugee camp via Catholic Relief Services. They had worked for my father in Saigon, and escaped via boat.

[tgo]

An uncle of mine was a navigator on US bombers that left from the UK on runs all over europe throughout WW II. he had a map in his study at home where all the routes were traced out with dates attached, facinating to look at - as you looked at the dates you could see them focusing on different areas for a week and then moving over to other territories
he recently passed away, this will be the first year they hold the annual troop reunion (now down to 3 men i think) without him.

[Nevada Hoya]

We owe so much to these men. I am sorry that I didn't ask my Dad more about his experiences. Like the others he may have been reluctant to speak about these times. He did tell his family two stories, one quite humorous. The humorous one involved his duty on night watch, and I am not sure if this was in France or Germany. He perceived some movement in the bushes besides their camp. He called out, "halt, who goes there." No response, then he said it again. After another no response, he fired his rifle. When daylight came, they examined the bushes and found an old nag lying on the ground.

He stayed over for the Nuremberg trials, and didn't get to see me until I was two years old.