lichoya68
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Post by lichoya68 on May 8, 2010 7:31:22 GMT -5
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CAHoya07
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Post by CAHoya07 on May 8, 2010 8:34:51 GMT -5
I hear what you're saying, but that picture did not bother me at all.
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Post by LizziebethHoya on May 8, 2010 9:31:39 GMT -5
I think Lic was referring to this article by Sally Jenkins which talks about the "team culture" in sports. In the case of UVA Lax, this culture encourages "physical swagger, heavy drinking and fraternal silence." For example, the accused in the UVA murder beat up a teammate last year over this girl, and the whole team (and coach) knew about it (and the coach "disciplined" him, although he still played in the next game) but that was that. No one else superior learned of the attack, and no one on the team spoke out to get Huguely the help (anger management, etc) he probably needed. Everyone was "fraternally silent" www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/07/AR2010050704895.html?hpid=artslot |
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hoyaalf
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Post by hoyaalf on May 8, 2010 10:46:45 GMT -5
Lic, I subcribe to all of that. It needs to be said again and again.
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lichoya68
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
OK YOUNGINS ARE HERE AND ARE VERY VERY GOOD cant wait GO HOYAS
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Post by lichoya68 on May 8, 2010 11:05:28 GMT -5
cahoya i wasnt upset that that pix was on the front page maybe it will help awareness i was upset and saddened to see the pix as it shows how much an effect this had on more than the uva students and families.. cnn showed the same pix and said six hoya lady lax players attended whom im sure knew the girl that was my point just wish those kinda pix didnt have to be taken  |
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Post by strummer8526 on May 8, 2010 23:37:58 GMT -5
Wait is there any connection between the UVA murder and college students drinking? Or are we just using this tragedy as another opportunity to condemn 19 and 20 year olds for engaging in the same behavior that is fine for 21 year olds?
This jerk-ass from UVA may have have been a big drinker (maybe...I actually haven't heard this anywhere). And he may also be a murderer. I fail to see how the former had anything to do with the latter.
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on May 8, 2010 23:56:21 GMT -5
"George Huguely is said to have been a vicious drunk who menaced Yeardley Love," first line of the article linked above.
From the first article about the intial incident: "Huguely, a young man with a temper and at least one alcohol-fueled episode of violence with a police officer. He received a suspended sentence after a drunken scuffle with a female Virginia police officer in November 2008."
"Longo also said police are investigating witness reports that Huguely was seen drinking throughout the day Sunday. "
It seems pretty clear he was probably drunk at the time of the altercation where he killed her.
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lichoya68
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
OK YOUNGINS ARE HERE AND ARE VERY VERY GOOD cant wait GO HOYAS
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Post by lichoya68 on May 9, 2010 7:57:18 GMT -5
there is good data that drinking IS connected to higher incidences of rape assaults etc.. NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT sure alot of kids even under 21 can drink reasonably .. but many DONT.. the incidence of binge drinking is like 40-50 PERCENT of all freshmen college students in the first two months of there beginning college. should the drinkng age be changed to 18??? actually i AGREE WITH THAT and think thats part of the problem... but not all.. sooo you cant dispute the fact that drinking IS associated with violent acts.. alot of kids can and do drink reasonalby but we all should not hide our heads in the sand and say hand off not my problem cause it is DEADLY.. if you see it speak up as they said about the nyc bomber. just one mans thought but there is data on this not made up . PLEASE THINK and if you see it speak up... obviously people did not do so at least as it seems so far in the uva case.. ps there was an article in the post many years ago stating that when the age was 18 in dc and colleges actually taught about drinking in a social situtation,, the attitude towards alchohol was better ie i rememeber professors having wine and cheese with students over to discuss books ...also many people have tried to address this but nothing works so far... each in a community must take some community responbilbility ... adults and young adults.. IN SUMMARY drinking does not equal murder.... nobody would say that.... but drinking to excess INCREASES THE INCIDNECE OF VIOLENT ACTS that data is clear and scary...
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on May 9, 2010 10:07:12 GMT -5
This jerk-ass from UVA may have have been a big drinker (maybe...I actually haven't heard this anywhere). And he may also be a murderer. I fail to see how the former had anything to do with the latter. Wow. Simply astounding. |
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Post by strummer8526 on May 9, 2010 11:15:10 GMT -5
"George Huguely is said to have been a vicious drunk who menaced Yeardley Love," first line of the article linked above. From the first article about the intial incident: "Huguely, a young man with a temper and at least one alcohol-fueled episode of violence with a police officer. He received a suspended sentence after a drunken scuffle with a female Virginia police officer in November 2008." "Longo also said police are investigating witness reports that Huguely was seen drinking throughout the day Sunday. " It seems pretty clear he was probably drunk at the time of the altercation where he killed her. Obviously, I didn't read the articles. I've heard so many tid-bits of the story that I wrongly assumed that I would have heard the alcohol aspect. Sorry for spouting off before making sure I was factually correct about Huguely. But my point remains the same: a huge percentage 19 and 20 year old college students drink, and only a tiny fraction ever commit violent crimes. There are also 19 and 20 year olds who, stone sober, do commit violent crimes. Pointing the finger at alcohol in this instance is, as far as I'm concerned, just another example of people trying to give very easy and rational explanations to irrational and horrific conduct. When a 10 year old boy beats a little girl to death, it's professional wrestling's fault. When a 14 year old shoots up a school, it's the video games and the music. And whenever a college student does anything, it's alcohol. Meanwhile, millions and millions of young men watched wrestling as a kid, play violent video games, listen to the same music, and drank a fair amount each weekend in college. We also, as kids, teens, through college, and into adulthood treat women with respect and would never hurt another person, much less commit a brutal crime like any of the ones mentioned above. I think that for a lot of people, it's easier to blame senseless youth violence on very definite, concrete "causes," whether it be movies, TV, music, or alcohol. And I think that's because it's hard to face the fact that some kids, even at a young age and even though living a life of privilege, can be deeply disturbed at a level that goes way WAY beyond drinking too much at the frat house. All of these "easy answers" for youth violence do the terrible disservice of depriving well-adjusted kids/teens/young adults of entertainment that they can enjoy responsibly, and at the same time, it shifts everyone's attention away from much more significant but hard to answer questions like how is it that a young man become so rage-filled and out of control that, drunk or not, he would kill a girl. Did the kid need help? Yes. Should more have been done to get him that help or at least protect other students from him? Yes. Is that a reason to condemn the first and most convenient thing that we can think of to blame? Not by a long shot. |
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Post by HometownHoya on May 9, 2010 13:12:03 GMT -5
"George Huguely is said to have been a vicious drunk who menaced Yeardley Love," first line of the article linked above. From the first article about the intial incident: "Huguely, a young man with a temper and at least one alcohol-fueled episode of violence with a police officer. He received a suspended sentence after a drunken scuffle with a female Virginia police officer in November 2008." "Longo also said police are investigating witness reports that Huguely was seen drinking throughout the day Sunday. " It seems pretty clear he was probably drunk at the time of the altercation where he killed her. Obviously, I didn't read the articles. I've heard so many tid-bits of the story that I wrongly assumed that I would have heard the alcohol aspect. Sorry for spouting off before making sure I was factually correct about Huguely. But my point remains the same: a huge percentage 19 and 20 year old college students drink, and only a tiny fraction ever commit violent crimes. There are also 19 and 20 year olds who, stone sober, do commit violent crimes. Pointing the finger at alcohol in this instance is, as far as I'm concerned, just another example of people trying to give very easy and rational explanations to irrational and horrific conduct. When a 10 year old boy beats a little girl to death, it's professional wrestling's fault. When a 14 year old shoots up a school, it's the video games and the music. And whenever a college student does anything, it's alcohol. Meanwhile, millions and millions of young men watched wrestling as a kid, play violent video games, listen to the same music, and drank a fair amount each weekend in college. We also, as kids, teens, through college, and into adulthood treat women with respect and would never hurt another person, much less commit a brutal crime like any of the ones mentioned above. I think that for a lot of people, it's easier to blame senseless youth violence on very definite, concrete "causes," whether it be movies, TV, music, or alcohol. And I think that's because it's hard to face the fact that some kids, even at a young age and even though living a life of privilege, can be deeply disturbed at a level that goes way WAY beyond drinking too much at the frat house. All of these "easy answers" for youth violence do the terrible disservice of depriving well-adjusted kids/teens/young adults of entertainment that they can enjoy responsibly, and at the same time, it shifts everyone's attention away from much more significant but hard to answer questions like how is it that a young man become so rage-filled and out of control that, drunk or not, he would kill a girl. Did the kid need help? Yes. Should more have been done to get him that help or at least protect other students from him? Yes. Is that a reason to condemn the first and most convenient thing that we can think of to blame? Not by a long shot. Strummer, I can tell you for a fact (no speculation) that George was not only drunk but also high on cocaine and xanax (abused, of course). I don't know about you but that combo definitely looks disastrous to me...Imagine if you were drunk, with tons of "anxious" energy, yet no anxiety about the results of any of your actions. Yes some psych help would have been the most beneficial but not only for his violent tendencies but also for his alcohol and drug issues. The reason why 9 times out of 10 a college student does something illegal or stupid is drinking. I'm sure that if George had been stone cold sober he would not have done something like this, its not like he is some redneck murder. He is a white collar kid, he went to an all boys prep school in the DC area (which some of your classmates at Georgetown may have come from), he went to the premier "preppy" public college, he was All-Met in Lacrosse and a Varsity player in Football, Basketball (until he quit to focus on lax) and Lacrosse. How many people that you know does that describe? Thats at least a quarter of the male students at Georgetown...are they all potential murders? maybe, lets see what alcohol, coke, and anti-anxieties do to you. Yes domestic abuse is no joke and I believe is one of the worse things you can do short of murdering her. I do believe that George did not mean to kill her but he was definitely in the mood to hurt her and her death was a result. I'm sure the "accident" call will take some time off his sentence but it doesn't change the fact that he not just killed her but also used his physical superiority over her. On that note, why doesn't anyone do research into how male athletes who were taught to always win and physically dominate their opponents (especially contact sports like lax and football) tend to keep some of these physical traits in the interactions with all people? |
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on May 9, 2010 13:26:32 GMT -5
There is probably more to learn about this, but it seems like the UVA player had issues apart from the intoxication/substance abuse and the history of arguments/altercations with the victim suggests that alcohol/drugs alone was not the cause. However, this does not mean that suburban drug/alcohol culture should not be cleaned up. In my HS, I knew folks who abused cocaine, club drugs, weed, etc. Fortunately, many of them have patched things together without long term damage to themselves, but they wasted a few years to be sure. In the process, they deprived themselves of good opportunities.
Part of the problem was inattentive parents who were blind to what was going on. The other part was natural curiosity by teenagers who don't fully appreciate the damage they are causing to themselves. Schools do not do a good job with the latter - most DARE programs are a joke. As to the former, I am not sure what can be done, but if you go away every weekend and don't know your kid is hosting drinking/drug parties, you are part of the problem. The other problem is that many view this club drug/suburban abuse thing as excusable or are willing to turn a blind eye. It is sad, particularly if you focus on meth abuse. When this behavior occurs in cities, it is called criminal.
Another aspect here that I hate is that journalists staked out the funeral yesterday. I know the death is a news story, but the funeral? If you aren't there to mourn, don't go IMO. Give the family some space and privacy.
My $.02.
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Post by HometownHoya on May 9, 2010 13:47:32 GMT -5
Personally, I think the best "anti-DRUG" program would be the REAL TRUTH. Tell kids how bad cigarettes are for you but how people use them as stress relief, social tool, etc. Tell them how bad drinking is on your body and the results from it (not funny stupid drunk thing) but also that its good when you are OLDER and that it doesn't hurt your body as bad when you are DONE GROWING. Tell the that meth is the stupidest thing ever and anyone that has ever done "drugs" knows that meth is awful and distructive and awful for your body! Tell the REAL truth about marijuana how it is not a gateway drug (the illegalness of it is what makes it gateway, if you have to buy your weed from the same person selling you coke, opiates, etc. you may end up getting them), is not too bad on your body once your brain is done developing and fine in moderation (a j at night to relax from work). That ecstasy kills scoops of brain cells and should not be experimented with, especially at pubescent ages, is important to tell them so that they know the COST of doing it and if they do it not to abuse it, plus the legal consequences! That coke is fun and can give you some highs but gives you the lowest of your lows and the legal consequences. There are so many new sythentic drugs now a days that the best Drug prevention is REAL Education (not mis education) and repeated and varied education.
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DanMcQ
Moderator
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Post by DanMcQ on May 9, 2010 13:56:53 GMT -5
Obviously, I didn't read the articles. I've heard so many tid-bits of the story that I wrongly assumed that I would have heard the alcohol aspect. Sorry for spouting off before making sure I was factually correct about Huguely. But my point remains the same: a huge percentage 19 and 20 year old college students drink, and only a tiny fraction ever commit violent crimes. There are also 19 and 20 year olds who, stone sober, do commit violent crimes. Pointing the finger at alcohol in this instance is, as far as I'm concerned, just another example of people trying to give very easy and rational explanations to irrational and horrific conduct. When a 10 year old boy beats a little girl to death, it's professional wrestling's fault. When a 14 year old shoots up a school, it's the video games and the music. And whenever a college student does anything, it's alcohol. Meanwhile, millions and millions of young men watched wrestling as a kid, play violent video games, listen to the same music, and drank a fair amount each weekend in college. We also, as kids, teens, through college, and into adulthood treat women with respect and would never hurt another person, much less commit a brutal crime like any of the ones mentioned above. I think that for a lot of people, it's easier to blame senseless youth violence on very definite, concrete "causes," whether it be movies, TV, music, or alcohol. And I think that's because it's hard to face the fact that some kids, even at a young age and even though living a life of privilege, can be deeply disturbed at a level that goes way WAY beyond drinking too much at the frat house. All of these "easy answers" for youth violence do the terrible disservice of depriving well-adjusted kids/teens/young adults of entertainment that they can enjoy responsibly, and at the same time, it shifts everyone's attention away from much more significant but hard to answer questions like how is it that a young man become so rage-filled and out of control that, drunk or not, he would kill a girl. Did the kid need help? Yes. Should more have been done to get him that help or at least protect other students from him? Yes. Is that a reason to condemn the first and most convenient thing that we can think of to blame? Not by a long shot. Lots of rationalization here, and no attempt (by me at least) to lay this tragic event solely at the feet of too much alcohol, but throwing out this blanket statement: "I fail to see how the former had anything to do with the latter." is shockingly naive. I hope that someday when you are a parent you'll have been able to make the connection and be able to help your children see it too. |
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on May 9, 2010 14:32:15 GMT -5
Strummer, I can tell you for a fact (no speculation) that George was not only drunk but also high on cocaine and xanax (abused, of course). I don't know about you but that combo definitely looks disastrous to me...Imagine if you were drunk, with tons of "anxious" energy, yet no anxiety about the results of any of your actions. I was wondering if anybody was going to mention this. Hasn't been reported in the press anywhere yet, as far as I can tell, but it's only a matter of time. |
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ahoya2
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Post by ahoya2 on May 9, 2010 18:31:44 GMT -5
Lic and Dan are absolutely correct in pointing out the problems of alcohol use. What hasn't been discussed is issue of the lacrosse "culture". Ask athletic directors and they will point out that pervasive problems with lacrosse behavior on campuses. The Duke fiasco reflected not criminal activity but culture of boorishness fed by alcohol.
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Post by HometownHoya on May 9, 2010 19:03:59 GMT -5
Lic and Dan are absolutely correct in pointing out the problems of alcohol use. What hasn't been discussed is issue of the lacrosse "culture". Ask athletic directors and they will point out that pervasive problems with lacrosse behavior on campuses. The Duke fiasco reflected not criminal activity but culture of boorishness fed by alcohol. I would think that it is more then just "lacrosse" culture. It just happens to be that lacrosse is the white collar sport and people expect more from it's athletes. I think that it is an issue of male athletics. These guys are taught their entire life to play as hard as they can, beat people down physically, and WIN (sometimes at any cost). Its not just lacrosse, its football, basketball, soccer, sometimes EVEN golfers!!! Its also not something that is contained to just college athletics...you can see it in the pros and to an extent with some high-schoolers. Males have enough of a testosterone driven ego anyways, when you have role models telling them to go be more of men, it doesn't help PS Why does Coach Starsia (that is the UVA coach right?) Allow his players to drink during the season. I mean that wouldn't have stopped George since he broke those rules throughout High School but at such a prominent and successful program you would think the coach would want the player's bodies in top shape |
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on May 9, 2010 19:35:44 GMT -5
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lichoya68
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Post by lichoya68 on May 9, 2010 19:39:33 GMT -5
you know i think all of this discussion is very important not sure what the answer is but i think this open discussion is a start if ONE kid speaks out to a friend or to an adult to get somebody somehelp and ONE life or violent assult is saved then thats something... these are complicated issues very complex no easy answers and we should not prejudge and as the bishop said maybe not now but there is a time for forgiveness but im not sure if this were my daughter i could ever come to that but thats a goal any way please hope some students out there who are bright and caring people think about this some again as was said in new york if you see something say something... that ny vendor did and as we all should we need to watch out for each other not tell each other what to do but Not HIDE OUR HEADS and just look the other way in the name of freedom or not ratting out or whatever.. the alchohol is frequently a part but only a part of this.. men and women for others sometimes aint so easy folks but good discussion hope it continues here and everywhere where young adults live and learn and play .
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on May 9, 2010 19:42:02 GMT -5
I'm pretty no NCAA athletes are "allowed" to drink in season. Does it happen? Obviously.
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