the_way
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Post by the_way on Dec 28, 2009 19:49:54 GMT -5
I actually kind of liked Wilbon's take on it today (though shame on Willybuns and TK for how craven they are becoming in challenging anyone anymore) Basically, Meyer is probably out and probably not going to coach next season, but the school panicked when he made his announcement on Saturday and they either asked him or they decided together that he should modify his status so they can hold onto more recruits. It's cynical, it's jaded, it's repugnant.........and, if I had to bet money, I believe it's almost certainly true. And its backwards. Meyer knows he is done. Even at the press conference. He sounded unconvincing about being on the sideline next year. Saving recruits for one year? They'll lose recruits for this year and the next and the next with his limbo status. All stability has gone out of the window. And its because the leadership from the head coach is unstable. Losing recruits for one year is better than what is going to happen now for years to come. Florida is too strong of a program to be hurt by one year of recruits. Get a new coach and move on. They had Spurrier, and then they eventually found Meyer. They'll find another good coach who will have success there.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Dec 28, 2009 19:52:04 GMT -5
All stability has gone out of the window. And its because the leadership from the head coach is unstable. good god, the leaps you make in your arguments are incredible. The guy goes something like 90-10 over his past 9 years, loses one game and has a heart problem, and his leadership is "unstable?" Wow. I guess JT2 was an also-ran as well when he stepped down.
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Dec 29, 2009 14:09:51 GMT -5
several comments:
first from page 2:
the way wrote:
His easy path to success has closed,and he is scared. Thats why he is stressed. Thats why it has exacerbated his health problems. That is why he initially quit. He did a 180 and came back only because of his pride.
That is utter hogwash, but you are entitled to your opinion, regardless of its complete fabricated reality.
I guarantee if Florida won that SEC title game and went on to beat Texas....issues about family and his health would never have come up.
I totally agree that if we had beaten Bama to put us in the title game, this issue would not have come up ... NOW. I will meet you half-way in that regard. Had we gone on to a 3rd National Title in 4 years, I think it's pretty obvious that the elation and general feelings of relief would have "helped" any stress related issue. That's not remotely similar to suggesting that the health issues were made up to, in some way, deflect attention away from the loss to Bama. It's also a far stretch from the suggestion that the "awareness" of the chest pains were, somehow facilitated by the loss.
Only after he got his butt kicked thoroughly by Bama, then these issues came up. He is creating an out for himself if things don't go well the next couple of years in Gainsville. And they aren't going to be the same without Tebow. Look at the way Donovan struggled in basketball after repeating. And SEC in basketball isn't on the level of SEC in football.
He is too high-strung for his own good and that is affecting his health. Some folks are like that. And thats not going to change for him. He should just step down for his own sake and his family he claims to comes first.
I agree that his inate character contributed to his stress issues. As for "creating an out for himself," again I say you are entitled to your opinion, but in this instance, you would have more credibility -- translated ANY -- if you supported your argument with something ... anything other than biased speculation. As for the parallel with Donovan and the basketball team, I think they are both inaccurate and inappropriate. While, on the surface, an issue of a coach making one decision and then changing his mind seems simple enough, I think the two situations are drastically different. In Billy's case, he simply changed his mind. Did he handle it in the best possible manner? I think not. But still, he initially jumped at a substantial pay raise along with tremendous opportunities. Who here among us wouldn't? Then after further thought/input from family and other factors, he decided that "money isn't everything." I'm not painting him as a Saint, just pointing out the facts. He certainly could have handled it better. That being said, I think the Meyer situation is entirely different. If Urban had any thoughts of going to coach somewhere else, then it would be a different story. But I have heard nothing to suggest this. I simply think that he was "scared" seeing what happened the Wake coach and thoughts that were deep in the back of his mind came to the front again. The combination of Christmas and the timing of the roster rotation of players added to the health issues that he has doubtlessly been dwelling on for months if not years, finally came to a head. Finally, I agree that he should just "step down" if he can't reach some sort of happy medium balance in his lifestyle.
Problem is, he isn't going to do that because of his ego. Meyer for all of his success, has been 2nd-fiddle with the Gators. Spurrier's legend initially overshadowed him. Then Tebow's legend and the Florida program himself overshadowed him. For the 1st time in his career there at that press conference yesterday, Meyer was the star. He needs Florida, not the other way around. And now he has flipped the script and has the program in limbo and in the palm of his hands.
Meyer is not bigger than the Florida program. But after this new arrangement, he has become that...and its to a detriment to the Gator program. If it had any chance of not going down the tubes like MIami and FSU have of recent memory, those chances are now slimmer with this indefinite leave of absence of his.
Again, with regard to ego, I would have to ask for some support for your -- what appears to be quite motivated -- opinion. Obviously I agree that if Meyer were to leave, then the reloading would more resemble rebuilding. But I'm not sure what that position really proves.
Carroll, actually is a balanced guy. He enjoys life. He has fun. If he has health problems, it won't be exacerbated by stress. He is a care-free guy.
Saban is as driven (if not more) and is type A (if not more) than Meyer. At the same time, he does have his moments where he can enjoy a little fun and be funny. He is built for the type of personality that he has.
Meyer does not. He rarely smiles. He rarely seems happy. I think he is a miserable guy who is a perfectionist to a fault. Thats why he is depressed with a 12-1 record this year. Meyer, unfortunately, is being undone by his weaknesses. Who he is will eventually kill him. Unless he changes. But that high-strung personality is what has gotten him this successful.
You can win and still have a life at a big time program. Spurrier did. Carroll does. But some people in life don't know how to do that. Meyer appears that he does not. And at the first sign of everything not going his way, his 1st thought was to flee. That is a red flag from a competitive standpoint too.
I agree that Carroll seems to be quite laid back. So-Cal ... imagine that. I also agree that Meyer isn't much of a smiling face. That's why the couple of smiles he broke in Sunday's press conference jumped out. But I totally disagree with your suggestion that this weekend's events simulate the flight instinct that we all have.
9797 wrote:
You're reading too much into this. It's obvious, the stress of the impeding recruiting and lack of institutional control violations finally got to him. He's getting out of there before the NCAA arrives.
I'm sure this is satire, but still, I must point out that this is utter hogwash. Are you sure you aren't "the way?" We aren't perfect here at Florida, and some of our student-athletes have made the wrong decisions. But we are light years away from a lack of institutional control.
Boz wrote:
Basically, Meyer is probably out and probably not going to coach next season, but the school panicked when he made his announcement on Saturday and they either asked him or they decided together that he should modify his status so they can hold onto more recruits.
It's cynical, it's jaded, it's repugnant.........and, if I had to bet money, I believe it's almost certainly true.
I have heard this suggestion. I believe that it is not the case. Only time will tell, but I agree that if his motivation and actions are as suggested, that would be a bad thing.
TBird wrote:
I'm pretty sure that most people on this board hate Florida, and by extension, Urban Meyer, because of you. And this is not a new thing, but then again, no one ever accused you of being observant or intelligent, so I'm not surprised that you missed it.
If you all hate a program like Florida ... or any other for that matter ... because of me then you have way too much time on your hands. I will ignore you second comment, as it lends zero positive contributions to the discussion.
Also, have to say that if Meyer does come back, he's pretty much the worst father ever (non-murderer/abuser division). His daughter gets all excited about having her daddy back and he responds by turning around and going back to coaching.
Did it ever occur to you that maybe her daughter, knowing it was a very tough decision for her father, instinctively said something that she thought would make him happy? didn't think so ...
Seriously, I don't doubt that there was some level of elation when Urban first decided to retire. That's only natural. But to take it to the next step, as you do here, is quite a stretch.
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CTHoya08
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Post by CTHoya08 on Dec 29, 2009 16:18:44 GMT -5
I don't like the Gators, and it pains me to say it, but HiFi is being far more reasonable in this thread than some of the Meyer critics.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Dec 29, 2009 16:22:50 GMT -5
I don't like the Gators, and it pains me to say it, but HiFi is being far more reasonable in this thread than some of the Meyer critics. That is true, but the_way rarely if ever sets the bar very high for reasonableness
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CTHoya08
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Post by CTHoya08 on Dec 29, 2009 16:24:42 GMT -5
Also true. I might be able to buy the selfishness/attention angles, but I am not at all sold on the afraid to lose argument.
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Dec 30, 2009 19:43:23 GMT -5
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Dec 30, 2009 20:14:44 GMT -5
Sounds like the guy has a panic disorder. Not a good line of work to be in if you want to keep that under control.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Dec 30, 2009 21:13:49 GMT -5
Sounds like the guy has a panic disorder. Not a good line of work to be in if you want to keep that under control. My wife is the doctor, not me. But wouldn't the reports that he has a heart problem indicate that it's not a panic disorder, but something physical and not a mental/psychological-based problem?
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Dec 30, 2009 23:37:07 GMT -5
Sounds like the guy has a panic disorder. Not a good line of work to be in if you want to keep that under control. My wife is the doctor, not me. But wouldn't the reports that he has a heart problem indicate that it's not a panic disorder, but something physical and not a mental/psychological-based problem? I'm a doctor and chest pain is often a symptom that occurs with panic disorders. Disclaimer: I've neither examined Urban Meyer nor reviewed his medical records.
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Dec 31, 2009 8:57:25 GMT -5
My wife is the doctor, not me. But wouldn't the reports that he has a heart problem indicate that it's not a panic disorder, but something physical and not a mental/psychological-based problem? I'm a doctor and chest pain is often a symptom that occurs with panic disorders. Disclaimer: I've neither examined Urban Meyer nor reviewed his medical records. Chest pain is "often" not a symptom of panic disorders. "Often" it's a symptom of severe heart problems, as you well know.
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hoopsmccan
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Post by hoopsmccan on Dec 31, 2009 9:42:34 GMT -5
Medical slap fight...awesome.
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nodak89
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Post by nodak89 on Dec 31, 2009 9:56:19 GMT -5
Medical slap fight...awesome. It's about time. The dang lawyers can't have all the fun.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Dec 31, 2009 9:56:57 GMT -5
I am not a doctor, nor do I play one on TV. However, the issue is not Meyer's health as far as I'm concerned. I accept that he has some condition which may or may not be life-threatening.
My beef with Meyer centers around his need to publicly air all this business and conduct his Hamlet-like vacillation out in the open.
Get better; coach or don't coach; but shut the hell up about it.
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Dec 31, 2009 10:30:13 GMT -5
I am not a doctor, nor do I play one on TV. However, the issue is not Meyer's health as far as I'm concerned. I accept that he has some condition which may or may not be life-threatening. My beef with Meyer centers around his need to publicly air all this business and conduct his Hamlet-like vacillation out in the open. Get better; coach or don't coach; but shut the hell up about it. I'm inclined to give him a little slack on this. He goes to a doctor, who says, essentially, that coaching further may kill him. He talks to those he loves, to his AD and the staff, and makes a decision to retire. It's worth noting that he kept it quiet and didn't make a scene like Roy Williams deciding whether or not to go to UNC from Kansas or Donovan going to the Magic. Then, after the news becomes final, it hits him. He's been a coach for ages - he's really really good, he's at a great program that has a history of success, he's famous and well-paid, and he just has to stop doing it. It's like Theisman's injury times a bajillion, only it's worse because he can still go out there and look like other coaches and do everything until he can't. So, he backsteps. He asks himself and others if there's a middle ground - and he gets the "sabbatical" idea. Maybe he can learn how to get healthier and get a waiver from his doctor to coach. He presents it at a previously-scheduled news conference. He had to publicly air his decision no matter what because anything in the ess Eee See is minutely analyzed, and because a week of rumors prior to a bowl game about him leaving (which would certainly get leaked by someone) would cause a lot of chaos.
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Post by DanMcQ on Dec 31, 2009 10:35:20 GMT -5
Semantics, easy ed. Chest pain can and often does occur as part of the symptom complex of panic disorders. helpguide.org/mental/panic_disorder_anxiety_attack_symptom_treatment.htmThat is not to say that chest pain should be ignored or that a cardiac cause should not be ruled out. Nor is it to say that the subject in question, Mr. Meyer, has not been experiencing chest pain. Importantly, the reports indicate Mr. Meyer has had several intensive workups to rule out a cardiac cause of his symptoms as would be appropriate. www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-urban-meyer-health-problems-20091228,0,2613388.story My comment above was not meant to insinuate that it was impossible that Mr. Meyer might have an organic/structural cardiac problem as you seem to have taken it. Rather, it was in response to public statements by Mr. Meyer himself that he'd had a cardiac workup and it had been negative. In that context, chest pain as a part of a panic attack is a valid diagnostic possibility. It is also a treatable condition, but the methods differ as you well know.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Dec 31, 2009 11:09:20 GMT -5
I think Meyer needs to step down for his own good.
The press conference saying he was not going to retire was him trying to convince himself he doesn't have a problem.
He is in denial.
As his wife said on the 911 call (who was impressively calm by the way), its anxiety.
He has to learn how to deal with stress or it will consume or, God forbid, kill him.
He is a good coach. But he has hit his ceiling with this problem of his. Its not going to go away. Its probably why his wife wants him to stop coaching.
If its strictly a physical thing, then that is a different issue altogether.
The wierdness of this whole thing is Meyer's denial of his problem. Its not a sign of weakness to admit that you have a weakness. But, unfortunately there are a number of ramifications if he admits that publicly, given his position of leadership. But trying to hide and prevent that notion, only propels it even further.
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Filo
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Post by Filo on Dec 31, 2009 11:39:07 GMT -5
Excellent - the_way is now making defiinitive medical diagnoses based on a press conference and a phone call. I love the internets.
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Post by SirSaxa on Dec 31, 2009 12:21:11 GMT -5
The wierdness of this whole thing is Meyer's denial of his problem. Its not a sign of weakness to admit that you have a weakness. But, unfortunately there are a number of ramifications if he admits that publicly, given his position of leadership. But trying to hide and prevent that notion, only propels it even further. Good insights, good post.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Dec 31, 2009 12:24:46 GMT -5
My comment above was not meant to insinuate that it was impossible that Mr. Meyer might have an organic/structural cardiac problem as you seem to have taken it. Rather, it was in response to public statements by Mr. Meyer himself that he'd had a cardiac workup and it had been negative. In that context, chest pain as a part of a panic attack is a valid diagnostic possibility. It is also a treatable condition, but the methods differ as you well know. Thanks for being so patient (no, not a pun!) to take the time to thoroughly explain your position which, to most of us, was quite clear the first time. Thanks too for the making medical info clear and understandable to us non-Doctors. One never knows just how useful such info can be to posters and their families -- either now or somewhere down the road.
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