sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Apr 29, 2009 14:10:58 GMT -5
Hungry: I think our system as currently constructed is terrible. If the hoyas want to remain relavent, they need to open up the system. Coaching is very over rated, generally the team with the best talent wins. Many on this board believe that JT II was not a great coach, if that was the case, then he must have won with talent. GU needs to stop overcoaching the kids and let them play. ID: Even in your infinite wisdom you must admit that in today's game asking a player to learn a complicated system is too much considering that college basketball has become a weigh station for the NBA. KG: U have it backwards, talent comes first then the running system. If every school could recruit talent as UNC they would run. The reality is that UNC runs because they have the best talent. No you run a system then recruit for that system. JTIII is probably more comfortable coaching the current system we have than the one UNC runs. The key to having a great team isn't having great talent or a great system, any system can win. As long as you have talented, not necessarily the most talented, players that commit to playing said system, you will be fine. Also, people overstate how long it takes to learn the system. It took the first group a year and a half because it was completely new to all of them. Freshman have and will come in an contributed from day one. No they don't have the offense perfected, but it doesn't take a year and a half to really understand it. And most teams have some system in place that takes a while to pick up. Look at Louisville, it takes new players a while there to pick up on their defensive system. Our offense isn't that complicated. This year the problem wasn't learning the offense, it was learning to play together when times got rough. Would it be nice to have All americans at every position, yea sure if they were willing to be a role player, do we need it, definitely not.
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bmartin
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by bmartin on Apr 29, 2009 14:22:10 GMT -5
The offense is not hard to learn if you have the multiple skills - dribble, pass, shoot, and a willingness to pass the ball and move without it. If all you have ever done is ask for the ball and then shoot or drive, the offense is going to be hard.
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the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
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Post by the_way on Apr 29, 2009 14:23:27 GMT -5
I don't know about you guys, but...
i don't care if JTIII recruits or doesn't recruit all-americans.
i care whether or not JTIII recruits good players to compete at a high-level in the big east.
as we know in our Hoya history and college basketball in general, there are good college basketball players fly under the radar, there are all-americans who are busts.
just get good players.
i personally don't think we have enough.
and i think JTIII has a huge learning curve when it comes to recruiting players at the Big East level, not coaching X's and O's at the Big East level.
see, he walked into a great situation when he first got to G-town. the program had been down, but he walked into a situation where he had 2 future NBA-first round draft picks. Plus, both Jeff, Hibbert, and Tyler were all coacheable, motivated, self-starters, and worked well together with their teammates. JTIII adding Wallace and PE, Jr to that nucleus made for some great moments in Hoya history. All of those guys got along, liked each other, played together as a team, etc. All of the stars were aligned. Add JTIII's X's and O's, teaching of fundamentals, and its not a surprise that we made it to the Final Four during that era.
But now, 2008-2009, we have all of JTIII's recruits. most of the upperclassman had transferred. And the ones who remained, once great supportive pieces to players who were better and more talented, got exposed this year for being just that and nothing more (Sapp and Summers).
There was no chemistry on the floor, very few ballhandlers, and no trace of the Princeton offense whatsover, and no trace of defense. If we were bad and still made the effort to do what was being coached, thats one thing, but the only thing we seemed to know how to do were chuck up 3's this year, and nothing else.
So, i think the jury is out on JTIII the recruiter. Can he build and sustain a winning program through recruiting at this level. We have been taking a dip every year since Jeff Green left.
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swhoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by swhoya on Apr 29, 2009 14:28:21 GMT -5
Hungry: I think our system as currently constructed is terrible. If the hoyas want to remain relavent, they need to open up the system. Coaching is very over rated, generally the team with the best talent wins. Many on this board believe that JT II was not a great coach, if that was the case, then he must have won with talent. GU needs to stop overcoaching the kids and let them play. ID: Even in your infinite wisdom you must admit that in today's game asking a player to learn a complicated system is too much considering that college basketball has become a weigh station for the NBA. KG: U have it backwards, talent comes first then the running system. If every school could recruit talent as UNC they would run. The reality is that UNC runs because they have the best talent. I think Omega might have done the impossible and gotten 95% of the board to come to an agreement. The problem with your argument, Omega, is that it doesn't get us ANYWHERE. Ok, let's just accept your statement that talent comes first and then the system. How then, as a small Catholic school, whose pinnacle of success was 25 years ago, that doesn't have a state-of-the-art gym, that doesn't have hot cheerleaders, are you going to then get the talent to come here? If you're a top-tier recruit and you just want to run and play with very little oversight, but with maximum national exposure, why would you ever come here? You'd go to UNC, to Duke, to UCLA. I think that the core flaw in your argument is that you underestimate the value of coaching. But even if you're right and we just need talent, it doesn't get us anywhere because there's no reason for those guys to come play at Georgetown. Fortunately, I do think there's a lot of very talented kids that do see the value in coaching and in a system. The ones that don't, fine, go play for Calipari, go to UNC (and no, I don't agree that they don't have a system there either), but I welcome getting players that want to learn.
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swhoya
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Post by swhoya on Apr 29, 2009 14:38:23 GMT -5
GU needs to stop overcoaching the kids and let them play. It's also worth mentioning that we had that at one point. His name was Kevin Braswell. How'd that work out for us?
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the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
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Post by the_way on Apr 29, 2009 14:40:25 GMT -5
Hungry: I think our system as currently constructed is terrible. If the hoyas want to remain relavent, they need to open up the system. Coaching is very over rated, generally the team with the best talent wins. Many on this board believe that JT II was not a great coach, if that was the case, then he must have won with talent. GU needs to stop overcoaching the kids and let them play. ID: Even in your infinite wisdom you must admit that in today's game asking a player to learn a complicated system is too much considering that college basketball has become a weigh station for the NBA. KG: U have it backwards, talent comes first then the running system. If every school could recruit talent as UNC they would run. The reality is that UNC runs because they have the best talent. I think Omega might have done the impossible and gotten 95% of the board to come to an agreement. The problem with your argument, Omega, is that it doesn't get us ANYWHERE. Ok, let's just accept your statement that talent comes first and then the system. How then, as a small Catholic school, whose pinnacle of success was 25 years ago, that doesn't have a state-of-the-art gym, that doesn't have hot cheerleaders, are you going to then get the talent to come here? If you're a top-tier recruit and you just want to run and play with very little oversight, but with maximum national exposure, why would you ever come here? You'd go to UNC, to Duke, to UCLA. I think that the core flaw in your argument is that you underestimate the value of coaching. But even if you're right and we just need talent, it doesn't get us anywhere because there's no reason for those guys to come play at Georgetown. Fortunately, I do think there's a lot of very talented kids that do see the value in coaching and in a system. The ones that don't, fine, go play for Calipari, go to UNC (and no, I don't agree that they don't have a system there either), but I welcome getting players that want to learn. Duke is a big school? Plays in a start-of-the-art gym? There is plenty of talent out there. The coach at Michigan seems to know how to find talent to suit his needs and system. Folks too enamoured with who is UNC, Duke, and UCLA are getting. Gary Williams has proven you don't need the same amount of players they have to compete and win. JTIII has proven you don't need all-americans at every position like they do, to compete and win. So, all of that woe-is-us, we can't bring in any good recruits is bogus. we can bring in talent here and win.
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swhoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by swhoya on Apr 29, 2009 14:56:09 GMT -5
Um, you read too much into what I wrote. Or perhaps it just wasn't clear. Either way, that's not what I intended. Yes, you got me, Duke isn't a big school, obviously my whole argument just collapsed from there. (And Duke does have state of the art facilities, Cameron is just...unique. )
Point was that I disagreed with his "Talent is All" screed. We can and do bring in talent, but if it's the type of talent that just wants to run and play up to that individual's own strengths, Gtown isn't the place for him. I could care less who UNC, Duke, and UCLA get, I just don't want the type of players Omega thinks we need.
You generally disagree with me, way, and that's fine. But actually read what I wrote, because on the by and large, I agreed with what you said in response to Omega.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Apr 29, 2009 15:02:47 GMT -5
Um, you read too much into what I wrote. Or perhaps it just wasn't clear. Either way, that's not what I intended. Yes, you got me, Duke isn't a big school, obviously my whole argument just collapsed from there. (And Duke does have state of the art facilities, Cameron is just...unique. ) Point was that I disagreed with his "Talent is All" screed. We can and do bring in talent, but if it's the type of talent that just wants to run and play up to that individual's own strengths, Gtown isn't the place for him. I could care less who UNC, Duke, and UCLA get, I just don't want the type of players Omega thinks we need. You generally disagree with me, way, and that's fine. But actually read what I wrote, because on the by and large, I agreed with what you said in response to Omega. my bad, fair enough.
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by SFHoya99 on Apr 29, 2009 17:30:12 GMT -5
If everyone just lets them play, the team that wins is the team with the most talent. That's not going to be GU all that often, if ever again.
Coaches don't coach to justify their salary -- they coach because it actually improves team performance. If you think someone like Roy or Calipari don't have systems or coach -- you're sorely mistaken.
Anyway, run right, the Princeton actually has a ton of freedom. We call relatively few set plays. The players play in a framework. But letting them play is a mistake if they don't make the right decisions.
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SaxaCD
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Post by SaxaCD on May 1, 2009 15:13:17 GMT -5
Who's that sentiment from? Your Syracuse friends? "Many on this board believe that JT II was not a great coach" Name three on this board who've ver expressed that opinion. There is a sentiment that JT2 was not a great coach. "all he had was Ewing", blah, blah, blah Some would foolishly believe that his son already eclipsed him once they went to the final four a couple of years ago. its bogus. JT2 was a damn good coach. He was just a lot of other things outside of coaching. If you look at his record, and his success in the Big East, and what he did for this program....you know damn well he was a great coach. I think folks take that for granted. And this year's team's struggles just goes to show you how hard it was and how remarkable it was for JT2 to have the consistent level of excellence and tournament appearences during his tenure here as a coach.
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TC
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Post by TC on May 1, 2009 21:00:39 GMT -5
It's also worth mentioning that we had that at one point. His name was Kevin Braswell. How'd that work out for us? To be fair, I think that was just incompetent coaching. Braswell would have been a better player under JT3 (which is saying something, because he was a very good player).
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on May 2, 2009 18:37:06 GMT -5
The Benimon commitment was a smart move by the staff. As I said a few weeks ago, we had become a little too careful with our recruiting. Benimon is the kind of player we would have waited on the past to see what Williams would do. Sometimes you win out with that strategy, and sometimes you get skunked. We were getting skunked more often than not recently. Now we at least have a serviceable player as opposed to a skunk.
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on May 2, 2009 18:59:49 GMT -5
I heard Latavious was going to choose Memphis because Ambassador called him a skunk.
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on May 2, 2009 21:22:19 GMT -5
I heard Latavious was going to choose Memphis because Ambassador called him a skunk. This post lacks a cite to the Washington Post.
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Post by tpk3 on May 3, 2009 10:21:51 GMT -5
well, when benimon gave his verbal i think that was a sign that we were not feeling so great about latavious' situation. benimon sounds like a great kid. and i love kids who want to be Hoyas- vee and jerrelle- both our spring signings. with only 10 guys we are going to need benimon at times this season if someone gets hurt or foul trouble. also he will be very important in practice.
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idhoya
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Post by idhoya on May 5, 2009 8:10:49 GMT -5
the fact that he's been running with the team for a minute also helps.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on May 5, 2009 10:43:31 GMT -5
It's also worth mentioning that we had that at one point. His name was Kevin Braswell. How'd that work out for us? To be fair, I think that was just incompetent coaching. Braswell would have been a better player under JT3 (which is saying something, because he was a very good player). Ah, TC's man crush on Braswell resurfaces. ;D
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