How will this season affect our recruiting?

[tjm62]

JTIII's job will obviously be more difficult after a losing campaign, but I am curious to know the thoughts of more-experienced hoya talk members on the short and long term implications for recruiting? How much difference can a single season make?

[michaelgrahamfan]

Since there are only 2 spots open, depending on the draft, I believe that he should still be alright this year. His big problem is that he is looking for defensive help now more than ever. I do believe that he may have to recruit more out of need than the best available player.

[harwoodhoya]

I think we will be ok but we need to becomce a little more uptempo. We need long athletic guards and a big who loves to rebound.

[SirSaxa]

This season is not good for recruiting. No way around that. The team had a magical aura around it a year or two ago, but that has vanished. JT3 and staff are working uphill now. It is going to be tough until things turn around on the court.

[IDenj]

i think this offseason will have as much to do with our future recruiting as our season did. i am a fan of what III has done; he did tho have an off year. how he recovers in the next 1 year will determine the continued direction of the program.

will there be an exodus? who possibly goes and who stays will factor into who we may or may not get ( recruit wise ) this spring.

the 12/13 players on the roster at the start of next season consist of a mix of mostly returning players and a few freshman. if that is the case we should be contending in the big east. local talents ( smith, barton, olidapo, any bigs? ) will continue to strongly consider us, as well as national ones ( odom, smith? etc ).

the 12/13 players on the roster at the start of next season consist of of some returning players and rely on the freshman coming in. if that s the case we will be in the same position we were in this past year, a "rebuilding" phase. which is not an ideal situation ( stock leveling or dropping ) to recruits.

i hope this doesn t get erased as i have no knowledge of, nor am i speculating on any transfers/departures/early leaves.

also i hope the staff redouble their efforts and make a strong push this spring/summer. they need to understand sitting back and expecting kids just to come without showing them love is not going to work. see hairston about that approach. my guess is they have learned their lesson.

[idhoya]

the "smooth cat" approach has been discussed and agreed upon that a change needs to be made in style of approach.

[RBHoya]

Two ways to look at “how this season will affect our recruiting”, which I’ll call external effects (ie. how it affects kids’ desire to play for us) and internal effects (ie. how it affects the type of kids we’re looking at/offering).

External

Obviously, it doesn’t help to have a losing season. But in and of itself, losing isn’t really crippling. A lot of well-recruiting coaches have had losing/NIT seasons in recent years including Calhoun, Jimmy B, Pitino, Matta, etc. and it hasn’t really hurt their recruiting very much. It isn’t going to make it easier and it might make things a little bit harder especially if you’re recruiting against a coach who is hot and coming off a final 4 or something like that, but 1 losing year probably isn’t going to have much long-term effect unless it becomes a trend.

The bigger issue, IMHO, is not the losing but the way it happened and the impression that people will get from watching our games. The fact that we have lots of “all-american talent” on our roster, and the fact that we were highly regarded early in the year only to totally collapse down the stretch is something that people are going to remember, and the idea that JTIII misuses his all-american talent is something that talented recruits are probably going to have to at least ponder. JTIII’s critics have said for some time that his system stifles the athleticism of good guards and wings by forcing them to slow down the pace, and it stifles the advantages of a good big man by forcing them to play 30 feet away from the hoop. Whether you believe this or not, there’s no doubt that the rumblings are getting louder (even on our own message boards!). This is no longer something that’s just being spouted by the haters on the Maryland boards. It’s something that otherwise unbiased people are thinking/saying.

The truth is that our offense is a thing of beauty when it clicks and runs smoothly (see Duke 06, OSU 06, Big East campaign 07, etc) but when it doesn’t (this year, ’04-’05) it’s pretty hideous. When the average guy turns on a Georgetown game and sees a 7’2 Roy Hibbert or a 6’10 Greg Monroe standing 30 feet away from the hoop looking to pass the ball, their reaction is . When we’re winning games they’ll overlook it but when we’re not, the perceptions of III’s system start to get pretty bad.

Fortunately for us we’ve got a few guys for 2010 locked up as well as a few guys in 2009 still on the radar. We’ve got 1 point and 1 big guy locked in for 2010, and there are a lot of wings who we seem to have a decent chance with, including but not limited to Smith, Barton, Ross, Odom and Kendrick. You have to think that things will work out with at least 1 of these guys. And personally, I think all we need is one. With Clark emerging as the shooting guard of the future—possibly backed up by Sanford in a combo role—and with Hollis presumably moving into the small forward slot after DaJuan leaves, I think that if we brought in 2 of those high-level wings that it might get a little crowded at the 2 and 3 spots. I’m not against bringing in a lot of guys and letting them fight it out for minutes, and if 2 of those high level players want to come you take them if you have the ‘ships, but I guess my point is we don’t NEED to land 2 of them.

Anyway I’m getting a little off track, but I guess my point is that I don’t expect our recruiting to be hurt too much as far as class of 2010 goes. If III can right the ship next year, bring the team back to the NCAAs and help Greg to be a top 5 pick, I think we’ll be right back to where we were on the recruiting trail and in the mix for some top guys in 2011. If we finish 9th or lower and miss the NCAAs and Greg’s stock falls outside of the top 10, we could be in some pretty serious trouble.

One more caveat, if we see multiple transfers again this offseason, that will set off some red flags as well.


Internally

Hard to say. Is III going to stay resolute and continue to recruit the same types of guys he’s recruited in the past? Or is he going to try to diversify a bit and bring in some different types of guys? There are compelling cases both ways, though I personally am hoping for the latter. If you strongly believe that JTIII’s system can and will work, and that this year’s trouble was a result of youth and the failure to gel of THIS PARTICULAR GROUP of guys, then there is no reason to change the recruiting philosophy much. However if you believe this year’s team has fundamental flaws in its construction, then you’d surely want to make some changes.

Giga’s point about a week ago was, I thought, pretty interesting and accurate, when he suggested that maybe JTIII and some on his staff started to fall in love with their own system a little bit and I think maybe the recruiting shows that. They recruit a lot of guys who are long, lanky, and skilled, but not guys who are bulky, physical and have a nose for the ball. Clark, Sims, Monroe and Thompson all fit the long/lanky/skilled paradigm, as do some other recruits that we didn’t get or haven’t gotten yet like Ryan Kelly or even Roscoe Smith. That isn’t necessarily bad, because all of the aforementioned players have the potential to be excellent college players. But, when ALL of your players fit that same description I think it’s potentially problematic. You need some diversification in the roster—for every lanky/finesse big man you need a banger/rebounder to balance things out a little bit.

I think the current team has too many guys who “let the game come to them” and not enough guys who “get after it.” The staff seems to insist that every recruit be highly skilled and be capable of shooting and handling to some extent, and able to play a face-up game. I think that’s a poor approach. You need a diverse set of skills in order to win and not every guy who has those skills is going to have face-up/ballhandling ability and range out to 15. That shouldn’t preclude them from getting an offer. Finally, I think you have to look at attitude. I think we could use some guys who play with a chip on their shoulder and who have a little bit of a mean streak. I’m willing to make some tradeoffs in the skill department in order to get guys with this type of mindset. I won’t name names but I do think some of the current players are far too concerned at times with showcasing their skills for the scouts, how many minutes theyre getting, how many touches theyre getting, what their draft stock is looking like, etc. I hate that. I’d much rather have a team of guys with lower ceilings who bust their asses on the court and in practice/offseason to get better, and who aren’t going to pout if they’re not getting enough minutes or touches. Guys who care more about winning than about what scouts say about their game. Mix in some of those types with the Greg Monroe high-talent types and we’ve got a winning mix.


That’s why I’m happy about the whole Olaswere thing, even if he doesn’t end up getting the offer. I like a guy who is a little off the radar and who plays with a chip on his shoulder. Even if he has flaws in his game, I like guys who are not afraid to stick their nose in for a rebound, who will play tough d and who will work to get better for 4 years. Hopefully we can find more guys who fit that description in the years to come.

[EasyEd]

"That’s why I’m happy about the whole Olaswere thing, even if he doesn’t end up getting the offer. I like a guy who is a little off the radar and who plays with a chip on his shoulder. Even if he has flaws in his game, I like guys who are not afraid to stick their nose in for a rebound, who will play tough d and who will work to get better for 4 years. Hopefully we can find more guys who fit that description in the years to come."

Does Omar fit this description?

[idhoya]

but talent level is different. Omar can shoot, but struggles everywhere else. Upside is low. Omar's is limitless.

[SirSaxa]

Mar 19, 2009 13:42:57 GMT -5 RBHoya said:

Two ways to look at “how this season will affect our recruiting”, which I’ll call external effects (ie. how it affects kids’ desire to play for us) and internal effects (ie. how it affects the type of kids we’re looking at/offering).

External

Obviously, it doesn’t help to have a losing season. But in and of itself, losing isn’t really crippling. A lot of well-recruiting coaches have had losing/NIT seasons in recent years including Calhoun, Jimmy B, Pitino, Matta, etc. and it hasn’t really hurt their recruiting very much. It isn’t going to make it easier and it might make things a little bit harder especially if you’re recruiting against a coach who is hot and coming off a final 4 or something like that, but 1 losing year probably isn’t going to have much long-term effect unless it becomes a trend.

The bigger issue, IMHO, is not the losing but the way it happened and the impression that people will get from watching our games. The fact that we have lots of “all-american talent” on our roster, and the fact that we were highly regarded early in the year only to totally collapse down the stretch is something that people are going to remember, and the idea that JTIII misuses his all-american talent is something that talented recruits are probably going to have to at least ponder. JTIII’s critics have said for some time that his system stifles the athleticism of good guards and wings by forcing them to slow down the pace, and it stifles the advantages of a good big man by forcing them to play 30 feet away from the hoop. Whether you believe this or not, there’s no doubt that the rumblings are getting louder (even on our own message boards!). This is no longer something that’s just being spouted by the haters on the Maryland boards. It’s something that otherwise unbiased people are thinking/saying.

The truth is that our offense is a thing of beauty when it clicks and runs smoothly (see Duke 06, OSU 06, Big East campaign 07, etc) but when it doesn’t (this year, ’04-’05) it’s pretty hideous. When the average guy turns on a Georgetown game and sees a 7’2 Roy Hibbert or a 6’10 Greg Monroe standing 30 feet away from the hoop looking to pass the ball, their reaction is . When we’re winning games they’ll overlook it but when we’re not, the perceptions of III’s system start to get pretty bad.

Fortunately for us we’ve got a few guys for 2010 locked up as well as a few guys in 2009 still on the radar. We’ve got 1 point and 1 big guy locked in for 2010, and there are a lot of wings who we seem to have a decent chance with, including but not limited to Smith, Barton, Ross, Odom and Kendrick. You have to think that things will work out with at least 1 of these guys. And personally, I think all we need is one. With Clark emerging as the shooting guard of the future—possibly backed up by Sanford in a combo role—and with Hollis presumably moving into the small forward slot after DaJuan leaves, I think that if we brought in 2 of those high-level wings that it might get a little crowded at the 2 and 3 spots. I’m not against bringing in a lot of guys and letting them fight it out for minutes, and if 2 of those high level players want to come you take them if you have the ‘ships, but I guess my point is we don’t NEED to land 2 of them.

Anyway I’m getting a little off track, but I guess my point is that I don’t expect our recruiting to be hurt too much as far as class of 2010 goes. If III can right the ship next year, bring the team back to the NCAAs and help Greg to be a top 5 pick, I think we’ll be right back to where we were on the recruiting trail and in the mix for some top guys in 2011. If we finish 9th or lower and miss the NCAAs and Greg’s stock falls outside of the top 10, we could be in some pretty serious trouble.

One more caveat, if we see multiple transfers again this offseason, that will set off some red flags as well.


Internally

Hard to say. Is III going to stay resolute and continue to recruit the same types of guys he’s recruited in the past? Or is he going to try to diversify a bit and bring in some different types of guys? There are compelling cases both ways, though I personally am hoping for the latter. If you strongly believe that JTIII’s system can and will work, and that this year’s trouble was a result of youth and the failure to gel of THIS PARTICULAR GROUP of guys, then there is no reason to change the recruiting philosophy much. However if you believe this year’s team has fundamental flaws in its construction, then you’d surely want to make some changes.

Giga’s point about a week ago was, I thought, pretty interesting and accurate, when he suggested that maybe JTIII and some on his staff started to fall in love with their own system a little bit and I think maybe the recruiting shows that. They recruit a lot of guys who are long, lanky, and skilled, but not guys who are bulky, physical and have a nose for the ball. Clark, Sims, Monroe and Thompson all fit the long/lanky/skilled paradigm, as do some other recruits that we didn’t get or haven’t gotten yet like Ryan Kelly or even Roscoe Smith. That isn’t necessarily bad, because all of the aforementioned players have the potential to be excellent college players. But, when ALL of your players fit that same description I think it’s potentially problematic. You need some diversification in the roster—for every lanky/finesse big man you need a banger/rebounder to balance things out a little bit.

I think the current team has too many guys who “let the game come to them” and not enough guys who “get after it.” The staff seems to insist that every recruit be highly skilled and be capable of shooting and handling to some extent, and able to play a face-up game. I think that’s a poor approach. You need a diverse set of skills in order to win and not every guy who has those skills is going to have face-up/ballhandling ability and range out to 15. That shouldn’t preclude them from getting an offer. Finally, I think you have to look at attitude. I think we could use some guys who play with a chip on their shoulder and who have a little bit of a mean streak. I’m willing to make some tradeoffs in the skill department in order to get guys with this type of mindset. I won’t name names but I do think some of the current players are far too concerned at times with showcasing their skills for the scouts, how many minutes theyre getting, how many touches theyre getting, what their draft stock is looking like, etc. I hate that. I’d much rather have a team of guys with lower ceilings who bust their asses on the court and in practice/offseason to get better, and who aren’t going to pout if they’re not getting enough minutes or touches. Guys who care more about winning than about what scouts say about their game. Mix in some of those types with the Greg Monroe high-talent types and we’ve got a winning mix.


That’s why I’m happy about the whole Olaswere thing, even if he doesn’t end up getting the offer. I like a guy who is a little off the radar and who plays with a chip on his shoulder. Even if he has flaws in his game, I like guys who are not afraid to stick their nose in for a rebound, who will play tough d and who will work to get better for 4 years. Hopefully we can find more guys who fit that description in the years to come.

Excellent write up RB! Thanks.

One minor quibble, or maybe in keeping with the theme... an issue on which a little further "Finessing" might be in order.

If you strongly believe that JTIII’s system can and will work, and that this year’s trouble was a result of youth and the failure to gel of THIS PARTICULAR GROUP of guys, then there is no reason to change the recruiting philosophy much. However if you believe this year’s team has fundamental flaws in its construction, then you’d surely want to make some changes.

I don't think those two points are mutually exclusive.

I do think this year's trouble was primarily due to youth, failure to gel and to understand the offense - and really buy in on D as well.

BUT, I also think we need a couple of guys who are big, banger, hard-nosed, kick-ass ballers. And maybe more than just at the 4/5 positions. I guess I am saying continue to go after the kinds of kids we've been gettting, but ADD some tougher, muscle guys. Some bodyguards for our finesse guys. Roy wasn't the toughest guy around, but he was so big he played the tough guy role without even trying. Pat Jr. was tough as nails, take no prisoners, but a helluvan athlete too. Major competitor...ALL the time. And Jeff, we may not think of him as a TOUGH Guy first and foremost, but he was plenty tough and HUGELY determined. Whatever it takes to win kind of cat.

Maybe that is putting too fine a point on these comments because essentially, I agree with everything you wrote.

GO JT3! Bring in some reinforcements!

And here's hoping the key guys all return.... work hard, and make themselves and the team much better next year. And... let's hope the coaching staff takes a serious look at this season as JT3 said they would, and figure out how we can be more effective and competitive in the BE -- whoever is on the team.

[daytonahoya31]

Plenty of great programs have gone through highs and lows. That's why I laugh at people who think this season will affect our recruiting negatively.

Listen, people. Georgetown is a BRAND NAME, on par with the Duke's, the Syracuse's, the UConn's, all of the powers in college basketball.

We recruited successfully AFTER the Esh era. We were fine We'll get our blue chippers. We have one coming in next season in Hollis, who is a top 30 player, and people seem to forget that. Markel Starks is a top 30 player. Nate Lubick is a top 50 player. We're working on and actively involved with multiple five-star prospects. You think we'd still be in on Williams if he weren't interested? We may or may not get him, but c'mon, let's not be Chicken Little's. People grow up to want to play for Georgetown, and one NIT season isn't going to change that. If anything, I'm looking at the roster if I'm a wing, measuring the possibilities and making plans on joining the crew.

I think this team was short one good wing player. If Hollis is that guy, that extra 6-7, 6-8 cat that can score, watch out. I think we were short an ingredient this year, and I think Hollis was that ingredient. And if we get Williams? Really look out.

Nobody is downplaying that this was a tough season. But it's not going to kill recruiting momentum. We'll win some, we'll lose some. But we aren't going anywhere on the trail.

[hoyarooter]

Excellent post, RB. As an aside, I would mention that many of the "skill" guys on our team were lacking this year in the most basic basketball skill - the ability to get the ball to go through the damn hoop with some level of consistency.

[OldHoyafan]

What would really help this team would be to find a Michael Graham for Monroe. If he had someone to do the dirty work like Graham did for Ewing, this team with the present cast returning would be scary. With that in mind are there any big forwards or centers on the Juco list that can help?

[idhoya]

There is Latavious, who is 6'8, 220 and a beast around the basket, fwih. He's a superior athlete and as some have suggested, in the mold of Jr. Prob a better athlete than Jr., fwit. Anyway, slide him next to GM and with his bounce, he's just what the doctor ordered. If he comes. The team will be a year older and wiser and deeper. With some tweaking, added depth of hopefully Lat, Vee and Hollis with a year under his belt, GU should be good. The mindset has to change as far as rebounding is concerned. Lat is a willing participant around the rim; no one this current team is. WIth JS gone, Vee provides another guard option. In the mold of a Chris Lofton type, Vee is a scorer who can shoot. Again, no one on this team is a shooter. Maybe Hollis, but haven't seen him live yet. Those are two of the fundamental problems with the team right now. If you can't shoot you have to be able to rebound. Hoyas have flaws in both. Pops' teams couldn't shoot, but defended and rebounded. Therefore, they were dangerous and could win against anybody on a given night. Don't know how confident I am in saying that about this current team. Don't know how confident the team is in saying that about themselves. We should see some things shake out this spring/summer and know where everything stands heading into the fall.

[hoya73]

' dangerous and could win against anybody on a given night'... Sounds like a description of a team that beat one NCAA 1 seed, one 2 seed and two 3 seeds to me. What we need to be is a team that doesn't lose to any inferior team on any given night.

[paranoia2]

This year won't affect anything imo. Esherick recruited Hibbert, Green and Crawford (if my memory serves me) and look what they did. Recruiting is strange. Terry Dehere was a St. Anthony's kid that was a mid-level recruit that blew up at Seton Hall. Our own Anthony Perry from St. Anthony's was a top 5 Mcdonald's all-american and look what happened.
My own personal philosophy on basketball is that someone will get points on a team no matter how bad the team is. The kid from Rutgers recently comes to mind (Quincy Douby). The key to winning basketball in relation to recruiting is finding kids that want to win more than score. Kids that will fight for everything.

[idhoya]

Esh killed AP. Injury didn't help either.