Over Half the Hoya Losses Due To....

[rclavien]

Lack of depth. In 7 of the Hoya 13 losses, they had the lead or were within 2 points of it with about ten minutes to go in the game. Does anyone wonder if the losses of Rivers and Macklin may have been more important than originally thought. Its like this team runs out of gas at a certain point. Or is it just lack of a guy like Wallace or Green, who had the clutch heart to take and hit the key shots? I thought Summers would step up, but I think that ship has sailed. We have been waiting for two years now. Is there any hope on the horizon?

[hoyafreakinsaxa]

I think the most significant factor is coaching. Something is off this year.

[Deleted]

It must be the coaching. We should fire JT3 immediately. Florida should fire Billy Donovan also as he has had superb recruiting classes and has done worse than we have the past couple of years after winning the NCAA.

[hoyafreakinsaxa]

We shouldn't fire JT3. I'm just saying something is off this year with his coaching. It's more coaching than lack of depth. The coaching is what makes the difference between finishing 11th in the Big East and going to the NIT, and finishing 9th in the Big East and making the tournament. I'm sure we'll rebound nicely next year.

[sleepy]

depth with 6 1/2- 7 players had not been a problem the last 3 years. its both players and coaching among other things discussed ad nauseum over the last six weeks.

[Madgesdiq]

Mar 4, 2009 17:39:00 GMT -5 rclavien said:

Lack of depth. In 7 of the Hoya 13 losses, they had the lead or were within 2 points of it with about ten minutes to go in the game. Does anyone wonder if the losses of Rivers and Macklin may have been more important than originally thought. Its like this team runs out of gas at a certain point. Or is it just lack of a guy like Wallace or Green, who had the clutch heart to take and hit the key shots? I thought Summers would step up, but I think that ship has sailed. We have been waiting for two years now. Is there any hope on the horizon?

I absolutely agree and have posted it before. The disdain that certain fans had for Rivers and Macklin has blinded them to the fact that they are both missed this year.

The team lost 5 rotation players from last year, not just the 3 starters.

Macklin and Rivers were not just backend rotation players either, they played a combined 34 minutes against Davidson.

Yes, the loss of Macklin and Rivers has hurt the depth of the rotation terribly. Their loss is felt on defense and the boards, and although both were average at best offensive players, they knew the system.

[SFHoya99]

I definitely was in the camp of "not missed."

I was wrong. Not sure how much they would have helped, but they would have.

[Filo]

Well, they were missed primarily because they were in the rotation and had experience. However, I think many of us thought they would be missed a bit less than they actually were because:

1. We assumed (hoped?) that Sims or Vaughan would step up and give us the minutes that Macklin had played, and do a better job of it. That didn't happen.

2. Although most figured Rivers' defensive stopper role would probably not be filled, we assumed Clark and others who got his minutes might be able to provide some decent defense and provide much better offense. I guess the offense we got was better, but it was not enough to offset the loss of Rivers' role on defense.

I know some will disagree, but those are my thoughts.

[GIGAFAN99]

They're missed because if Macklin starts at center, we are a much, much better team. Would he have? Tough to say given how much we seem to want Monroe there. But just anyone to take up space on D and not hang around the 3-point line on offense would have helped. Macklin could have done that.

Rivers on D would have helped but not sure how much he would have played given Clark has played very well actually.

[RockawayHoya]

Depth isn't the problem. If anything, we've utilized our "depth" too much this year. The best guys aren't getting the most minutes, and our play has suffered because of it. Remember at the beginning of the year when commentators used to tout our starting 5 as being one of the best starting units in the nation, and that it was our bench that was holding us back? III decided to play the bench more than he should have or needed to, and that has reflected in our results.

[paranoia2]

You can't bottle perfect elements combining like Wallace, Hibbert, Green and Crawford and the JT 3 system coming together. Think about 3 recruits from Esh and Wallace walking all the way from Princeton to the Hilltop. It was magical. I mean Ewing's son was integral in making the Final 4 and imo would have been the difference vs. Florida the year before. JT 2 coaching style was kind of predictable because defense and intensity travel everynight. Cerebral basketball takes time to master. Keep the faith. As frustrating this year was/is I've seen enough flashes to make next year look great. In the past we've been handed the stories of past hoya big man greats helping the current bigs progress. Maybe we could find Eric Smith (the most underappreciated hoya ever imo) and Perry McDonald to come teach our 2's and 3's how to grab a bleeping defensive rebound during the offseason. Read up on Eric Smith if you are feeling down about the Hoyas. After Fred Brown's "Worthy" thing one Hoya raced down the court to foul him. Eric Smith. He was a bleeping hoya!

[Dhall]

Rivers was missed because this team lost games by not playing defense. Macklin was not missed at all - he was a poor rebounder, defender, and offensive player. Vaughn is absolutely a better player than Macklin in every aspect of the game.

[ninetyoner]

Losing Rivers and Macklin hurt A LOT.

Monroe, to me, resembles Tim Duncan and Duncan is a 4. Macklin at the 5 could have anchored the middle for us defensively and could have been a huge help clearing the defensive glass. Even if he never developed into an offensive player or continued his foul trouble bug, he would have freed Greg up offensively to shoot over and take smaller forwards into the post. Plus, Vaughn could have then gotten the garbage minutes when either Monroe or Macklin got into foul trouble. I honestly don't think we've heard the last of Vernon Macklin.

Rivers was also huge. I simply do not get Austin Freeman. The guy plays zero defense. In my view he is so bad defensively that his offensive production, especially because it is streaky, simply doesn't make up for it. Right now, he is at best a 6th man on a top 5 BE team.

Think about it. A starting 5 this year of Macklin, Monroe, Summers, Rivers and Wright, with Freeman and Nikita off the bench when those guys had trouble scoring the basketball would have been a very tough team to beat. Clark could have spent a year learning the offense in practice, same with Sims. Plus, with Vaughn, you would have had a nice 8 man rotation allowing both Monroe and Macklin to be more aggressive on defense.

We lost to St. Johns because Greg got manhandled by Evans late and because we had no defensive answer to STJ's point guard late. Rivers and Macklin would have solved both those problems. We are a .500 team because we don't play defense and we don't limit the other teams touches through strong defensive rebounding. Macklin and Rivers would have solved both those problems.

IMHO, if JTIII has a fault this year, it was not emphasizing that if you didn't play defense you were sitting. Far too much talk on this board worries about the offense. I never felt this team had a particular problem scoring the basketball. Our downfall came on the other end.

As such, III needs to do two things in teh off season. (1) Find a JUCO 4/5 that can protect Greg, rebound and play defense (or be damn certain that Sims will be ready for that role come November) and (2) Get his guards to buy into a defensive intensity mentality. I am really worried that Wright and Freeman will never do that. Summers may already be a lost cause.

We're going to see just how good a coach III is. I am rooting for him.

[theyellofallyells]

I can't believe anyone on this list would advocate firing JT3 immediately...I mean that is just preposterous. Wake up people! quit it with the self loathing! we are a good team that had a bad year. We are young and not deep...that is all....

fire JT3...jesus are you sniffing glue?

[the_way]

our players aren't tired after games.

Rivers, and Macklin may have helped us on the defensive side of things, but again i don't see us wining a couple of more games because of their presence, really. Let's be honest. Rivers was a defensive specialist and nothing more. you were playing 4 against 5 out there on offense. And Macklin, god forbid, if he had to shoot free throws in crunch time. Instead of Hack-a-Shaq, it would have been Hack-a-Mack this year.

its a mental issue with our team. they just have to play their way through. its called experience. its called growing pains. learning how to play with a lead. learning how to play at a high level for 40 minutes. never relenting on any play while competing. blocking out all distractions and not getting frustrated when adversity hits. focusing on your assignments, etc. young players, no matter how talented, all have to go through this process. it can be ugly. it can be painful. but its unavoidable.

[tashoya]

Over Half the Hoya Losses Due To....

..... Scoring Fewer Points Than the Other Team. In fact, 100% of them are due to that.

This thread is getting ridiculous. When did Vernon Macklin get good at ANYTHING? PLEASE stop with that garbage. Rivers? Still a ridiculous liability on offense.... more than Freeman is on defense. Probably the lack of depth hurt us a bit but Macklin wouldn't start on the squad we have right now. I'd start Julian over him NOW. Macklin didn't get the system and Rivers was a turnover machine. As much as lack of depth is foul trouble. DS is constantly sitting. As is Nikita. And Sims picks em up pretty quickly too. That's what is really hurting our depth.

[ninetyoner]

Tashoya:

I'm assuming Macklin improves between his Sophmore and Junior year. Do you really think he doesn't help us defensively and get rebounds if that is what he is coached to do? Maybe not. But one has to assume that your players are going to get better as they go through the program. Macklin at the 5 and Monroe at the 4 is a MUCH Better Big East combo than Monroe at the 5 and Summers at the 4.

As for Rivers, this team lost at least 5 games this year because we didn't have a defensive specialist. Do you think Marquette's guards go crazy in both games if Rivers can stuff one of them? Do we give up 98 points to Cuse on the road with Rivers? Do we loose both Cincy games? Do we loose to STJ when the only guy who can score reliably for them is their point guard if we have Rivers?

A 9-9 or 10-8 BE record looks a lot different than a 6-12 or 7-11 record, doesn't it? I'm not saying Macklin and Rivers get us to the Final Four but I'm certain we're dancing if we have them.

Anyway, the point is we need some players who both can and will adopt the attitude and adapt to the roles Rivers and Macklin would have played. Without a commitment to defense and defensive rebounding there will be no improvement next year. The question III has to answer is who does he have or need to get that will make that commitment.

[SFHoya99]

Mar 5, 2009 9:50:14 GMT -5 ninetyoner said:

Monroe, to me, resembles Tim Duncan and Duncan is a 4. Macklin at the 5 could have anchored the middle for us defensively and could have been a huge help clearing the defensive glass. Even if he never developed into an offensive player or continued his foul trouble bug, he would have freed Greg up offensively to shoot over and take smaller forwards into the post. Plus, Vaughn could have then gotten the garbage minutes when either Monroe or Macklin got into foul trouble. I honestly don't think we've heard the last of Vernon Macklin.

I think Mack would have been big on defense. But he wasn't going to improve offensively, and he's simply not a good rebounder.

So while simply moving Summers to the 3 might have helped the rebounding, I don't think there would have been a quantum leap there.

Rivers was also huge. I simply do not get Austin Freeman. The guy plays zero defense. In my view he is so bad defensively that his offensive production, especially because it is streaky, simply doesn't make up for it. Right now, he is at best a 6th man on a top 5 BE team.

Both Freeman and Summers have a cumulative NEGATIVE +/- this year, even including cupcakes.

The charts on this page tend to lend some credence to the "always giving up as many as you get": Individual Net Points

Rivers, however, playing on a much better team, was much, much worse. In fact, last year, the team was +11/40 minutes in BE games when Freeman was in and -20/40 min when Rivers was in.

I really don't think Rivers makes that up.

Think about it. A starting 5 this year of Macklin, Monroe, Summers, Rivers and Wright, with Freeman and Nikita off the bench when those guys had trouble scoring the basketball would have been a very tough team to beat.

Could that team score? I mean, Summers and Wright would have to take all the shots. That team seems remarkably easy to defend. It's a worse offensive team than when we have Nikita and Omar out there.

We lost to St. Johns because Greg got manhandled by Evans late and because we had no defensive answer to STJ's point guard late. Rivers and Macklin would have solved both those problems. We are a .500 team because we don't play defense and we don't limit the other teams touches through strong defensive rebounding. Macklin and Rivers would have solved both those problems.

Yeah, but you have to acknowledge that they create other problems.

IMHO, if JTIII has a fault this year, it was not emphasizing that if you didn't play defense you were sitting. Far too much talk on this board worries about the offense. I never felt this team had a particular problem scoring the basketball. Our downfall came on the other end.

Defense has been a huge issue (oddly, not the last few games), but the offense hasn't been sparkling, either. The board is offense happy, yes, but both need to be considered.

JTIII benched a lot of guys this year. I don't know how much of it was due to not playing defense.

As such, III needs to do two things in teh off season. (1) Find a JUCO 4/5 that can protect Greg, rebound and play defense (or be damn certain that Sims will be ready for that role come November) and

I haven't heard any JUCO comments, but Sims and Vaughn will get better. Latavious Williams is very high on us and while he's not a Joey Dorsey-type, he may be a Pat Ewing type.

(2) Get his guards to buy into a defensive intensity mentality. I am really worried that Wright and Freeman will never do that. Summers may already be a lost cause.

I'm just hoping that this season left an AWFUL taste in their mouths. Nothing like losing to motivate.

[tashoya]

Well without getting specific as SFHoya pretty much took care of that.... what makes you think Mack would have gotten better? He didn't improve the time he was here. He wasn't a good offensive player, not a good rebounder and a fair defender when he wasn't picking up fouls at a Nikita-like pace.

As for Rivers, whatever he would stop in terms of his defense in the games you mentioned he'd more than cost us on the other end of the floor as we had very little post game this year and our shooters weren't great to start off with and now the other teams get to play 5 on 4 when we have the ball.

We missed Hibbert, Ewing, and Wallace. Not Mack and Rivers. Period.

[FOTP]

Good lord people. Take it easy. I'm dissapointed too, but life will go on.

The line between top of the Big East and 7-11 is thin. Last year we won a number of very close games down the stretch with a very veteran battle tested team. This year we lost pretty much all of those game. The Big East was very old this year with tons of experience. This did not bode well for our young Hoyas.

Last year we had the Hibbert 3, the Nova "foul" win, the WVU PE3 block etc. The line is thin and we just didn't get it done.

We will return everyone (i am barely counting Jessie at this point) and add one good freshman. Not a bad place to start.

Should we have won 3 more Big East games....yes...we "should" be around10-8 or so. Unfortunate, but not the end of the world.

We are just seeing the cycle in the Big East.