calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Feb 8, 2009 9:32:30 GMT -5
Let's see, the kids don't like each other, are too young, locked in a system they still cannot play, have big egos, make no adjustments to other team's playing styles, are not as talented as we thought they are, and lack leadership at the player and coaching level. I think that summarizes many of the analyses on this Board. Yet, with all those negatives, they still managed some very big wins earlier in the year against some very solid teams. They also played well --until bad stretches in the 2nd half against Pitt and Marquette. So what happened? Nothing I read here helps me understand or explain how they have fallen off so quickly. Did JT III forget how to coach or did the kids regress in talent. What does worry me is that all the negativity here and around the program could hurt the program in a big way--harken back to Esherick years.
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757hoyafan
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Post by 757hoyafan on Feb 8, 2009 9:45:13 GMT -5
One poster claims we beat UCONN because they were reading the press clippings. lol
IMO, experience/coaching > talent... ex: remember when we lost to UMASS in the final 8?
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blueandgray
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Post by blueandgray on Feb 8, 2009 10:04:56 GMT -5
that's the 10 million dollar question calhoya....you can't explain it...in fact, i'm not sure i've ever seen anything like it. during the first 13 games or so, when the team is supposedly getting to know eachother and learn ing some of the nuances of the system...we out-tough a very good memphis team, we manhandle what many consider the best team in the country in UCONN, and we crush the cuse. then over the next 10 we don't look like we even belong on the court with WV, lose to an undersized and lessor talented SH, and get swept by Cinci. I've never seen anything like this ever.
one could point to ND as experiencing something similar to what we're experiencing...but one could have predicted that. in fact, I did predict that when ND was in the top 10 and I started a thread saying that they would be falling out of the rankings. the difference between us and ND is that they've lost to 7 ranked teams in the last 3 weeks and that they fought hard in the process. We on the other hand are losing to weak teams and are rolling over in the process. never seen anything like it. there certainly is no easy answer.
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Post by henlehoya on Feb 8, 2009 10:07:44 GMT -5
Our team is young.
When you look at the two big wins we had that were decisive (Connecticut & Syracuse), in both we jumped out early and our opponent never led. The guys played with much more visible confidence when they had those double-digit leads on the scoreboard. That much, I think, is pretty obvious but the youth and inexperience (NOT immaturity) is most obvious in tighter situations.
I don't think it's fair to say the guys "crumble" or are "soft" because it implies that experience (which is necessarily something that comes *with* time) is acquired through drills or practice. Even last year, The Year of the Freshman, in college basketball, each Final Four team had a core of players with more than a year of experience.
Now I can just feel someone is going to counter with "what about Jessie and DaJuan?" I am not entirely sure. I can say, pretty confidently, that I don't think either of them functioned as "glue" or leaders at any point prior to this year. Both were flanked by players who were ice cold on the court. Right now we've yet to really fight through a game where we've played poorly--but I don't think it's because of a lack of "toughness" (whatever the hell that even means)
I am not a negative person. I went through school with the class of 08 and started the same year as JTIII. Watching our success first-hand and with such personal involvement will always be one of my favorite memories from college. I know I speak on many people's behalf when I say I will NEVER again take for granted our success.
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Eurostar
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Post by Eurostar on Feb 8, 2009 10:11:46 GMT -5
i think it was the Duke game. that game with all the tacky fouls, the T and the air of being fixed really took the wind out of our sails. i felt almost cynical after that game. how could we lose to a team that we were better than when we actually played well? it was like whatever we did would never be good enough because the outcome was predetermined.
i'm not giving an excuse, but its obvious that the game gave us a punch to the stomach that we never recovered from.
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Post by michaelgrahamfan on Feb 8, 2009 10:40:06 GMT -5
I think the Duke scenario is correct. When you are that young confidence once lost can not be easily replaced when there is no veteran leadership on the team which can reassure the freshman. Sapp may have been benched more because of his lack of leadership than his play.
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FLHoya
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Post by FLHoya on Feb 8, 2009 11:22:00 GMT -5
I keep making comparisons between the 08-09 team and the 04-05 team of JT3's first season at GU. The 04-05 team understandably took a while to get going after undertaking an entirely new system, but it's quality wins were all "early" in the Big East season:
The 67-64 upset of Pitt at the Pete in the conference opener on Jan. 5th.
The last second 66-64 victory over Nova at the Pavilion on Jan. 15th.
Roy Hibbert's buzzer beating dunk for a 55-54 win over ND on Jan. 23rd.
That's three of the first six BE games, after which the Hoyas started slumping. I think inexperience and fatigue caught up to that team.
As for the 08-09 team, I think our collective inexperience plays a big role. But there's one other pretty obvious factor in why we haven't replicated our big early season wins, and I'll keep it simple:
Opponents scout us.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Feb 8, 2009 11:22:13 GMT -5
UCONN took us for granted. saw that we were young and with a small bench. They were at home. Thought they could just show up. And we pounced them because of it. If we play them now, it would be a different story.
Syracuse came out flat in the 1st half and never recovered, and we came out smoking and shooting lights out.
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KHoyaNYC
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Post by KHoyaNYC on Feb 8, 2009 11:26:16 GMT -5
UCONN could have not taken us for granted and Syracuse could have come out well and we still would have won both those games.
I can't explain it. I do know this - JTIII teams usually hit their stride in February. This year's team continues to regress. I don't see us coming out of it.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Feb 8, 2009 11:35:48 GMT -5
UCONN could have not taken us for granted and Syracuse could have come out well and we still would have won both those games. I can't explain it. I do know this - JTIII teams usually hit their stride in February. This year's team continues to regress. I don't see us coming out of it. We would have won against UCONN playing at full effort? lol the real UCONN isn't the one we beat. the real uconn is the team thats playing strong right now. yeah, okay. Syracuse, is always a toss-up game with them. They are always beateable. Even Esh beat them and/or played them close.
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bmartin
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Post by bmartin on Feb 8, 2009 11:50:04 GMT -5
Against any man defense we can run the offense through Monroe at the top of the key/high post and get good shots on every possession. If we make the shots, we are good. UConn took too long to figure out that we could not guard Adrien. Dyson's 1 for 10 shot them out of the game. Against Syracuse, they gave us threes and we made them. Also, when we were winning, we were shooting and making a lot of free throws.
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Post by strummer8526 on Feb 8, 2009 12:00:16 GMT -5
I keep making comparisons between the 08-09 team and the 04-05 team of JT3's first season at GU. The 04-05 team understandably took a while to get going after undertaking an entirely new system, but it's quality wins were all "early" in the Big East season: The 67-64 upset of Pitt at the Pete in the conference opener on Jan. 5th. The last second 66-64 victory over Nova at the Pavilion on Jan. 15th. Roy Hibbert's buzzer beating dunk for a 55-54 win over ND on Jan. 23rd. That's three of the first six BE games, after which the Hoyas started slumping. I think inexperience and fatigue caught up to that team. As for the 08-09 team, I think our collective inexperience plays a big role. But there's one other pretty obvious factor in why we haven't replicated our big early season wins, and I'll keep it simple: Opponents scout us. Agree w/ many of your comparisons. But didn't teams scout us last year?
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GUJook97
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Post by GUJook97 on Feb 8, 2009 12:22:17 GMT -5
UCONN took us for granted. saw that we were young and with a small bench. They were at home. Thought they could just show up. And we pounced them because of it. If we play them now, it would be a different story. Syracuse came out flat in the 1st half and never recovered, and we came out smoking and shooting lights out. Agreed. Maryland beat Michigan State on a neutral floor, too. BC beat UNC at Chapel Hill in their opener, too (probably the most apt comparison for us at this point). Sometimes you catch a team, especially early in the season. Our big wins look more and more like blips these days. There is a reason the committee is always saying that it cares about your last 10 games.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Feb 8, 2009 12:51:33 GMT -5
If we played UCONN now?
The way they are playing now? or the way we are playing now? If we played the way we were then, and they played the way they are now... it would be a close game and we might win, but the edge would go to them.
Press clipping? UCONN clearly was reading theirs. Trouble is, maybe the HOYAS started reading ours too. Beating UCONN, Cuse, etc... going to DUKE. Then the team imploded. Maybe they were as a team -- and individually -- too impressed with themselves.
Our on court leadership is lacking. Our talent/depth is lacking. And our coaching staff -- which started the year out great -- has not been able to snap these guys out of it.
Is the season "lost"? No season with this many games left is ever "lost". Forget about the NCAA's, the NBA, and all the rest, and just start focusing on all the little things it takes to win basketball games. THat was JT3's message early in the game with the "line change" substitutions.
As a fan, speaking only for myself, I have adjusted my expectations and just want to see this team improve, put team first, run the system, trust one another, and start winning a few games again.
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sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Feb 8, 2009 12:53:45 GMT -5
Stummer this team has so few options all you need to do is take away Monroes passing ability by playing off him more, and making him go to his right which he cant do and you have eliminated about 40% of our early season offense. that combined with the fact that outside of summers shooting from outside we really have no other option from three. when that is effectively taken away we are left with summers pull ups in the lane or a fumbled drive attempt. teams no longer need be as concerned with getting out to guard the 3 like they have the past 3 years. we sit here and complain about effort and passion and running the offense. well teams are playing back a step taking away lanes bumping cutters coming through. we could get a good 20 3 attempts with great looks every game but whose going to make them at a 35% clip. The last 3 games we have subtly changed a bit of our focus and we are going inside to monroe on a more consistent basis but based on the touches he is getting in scoring positon we are not getting the production you would expect to keep the defense honest. outside of his passing ability he is a very limited one handed offensive player. so we are limited inside limited from outside not getting open cuts to the basket and we dont rotate well with the gambling defense we play because we cannot guard effectively in a straight man toman. not a big surprise we are where we are. I'm slowly being drawn to the ways viewpoint on the construction of this team. how much of this is youth inexperience quite a bit again i'm reminded of Uconns team from 2 years ago but they had much less experience and showed little improvement untill late last year. Its not like last years team was so dominant we pulled 3 or 4 games out of our $$%% and could easily have finshed 12-6 or 11-7 with a few more bad bounces but sometimes experience carries the day. In retrospect i suppose i'm trying to find some middle ground so not to go off and attack both three and the entire team which i keep finding harder to do with each passing week. If only i had lics optimism.
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tjm62
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Post by tjm62 on Feb 8, 2009 13:16:25 GMT -5
luck
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Feb 8, 2009 14:32:15 GMT -5
We have two quality wins. Uconn and Memphis. Cuse looks less and less impressive. That's one more quality win than South Florida has. We are a bad team whose lucky games were front- loaded this year. We'll probably get lucky and pick up another quality win. Maybe two. But that's it. The losses are the norm. The wins against good teams are quite clearly the abberation here.
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royski
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Post by royski on Feb 8, 2009 14:35:42 GMT -5
UConn always drops an early Big East game to someone they shouldn't. Memphis hadn't yet moved Tyreke Evans to the point, a move that seems to be paying off in spades. We shot better than our opponents in both games. It's really that simple.
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FLHoya
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Post by FLHoya on Feb 8, 2009 14:58:55 GMT -5
Stummer this team has so few options all you need to do is take away Monroes passing ability by playing off him more, and making him go to his right which he cant do and you have eliminated about 40% of our early season offense. that combined with the fact that outside of summers shooting from outside we really have no other option from three. when that is effectively taken away we are left with summers pull ups in the lane or a fumbled drive attempt. teams no longer need be as concerned with getting out to guard the 3 like they have the past 3 years. we sit here and complain about effort and passion and running the offense. well teams are playing back a step taking away lanes bumping cutters coming through. we could get a good 20 3 attempts with great looks every game but whose going to make them at a 35% clip. The last 3 games we have subtly changed a bit of our focus and we are going inside to monroe on a more consistent basis but based on the touches he is getting in scoring positon we are not getting the production you would expect to keep the defense honest. outside of his passing ability he is a very limited one handed offensive player. so we are limited inside limited from outside not getting open cuts to the basket and we dont rotate well with the gambling defense we play because we cannot guard effectively in a straight man toman. not a big surprise we are where we are. I'm slowly being drawn to the ways viewpoint on the construction of this team. how much of this is youth inexperience quite a bit again i'm reminded of Uconns team from 2 years ago but they had much less experience and showed little improvement untill late last year. Its not like last years team was so dominant we pulled 3 or 4 games out of our $$%% and could easily have finshed 12-6 or 11-7 with a few more bad bounces but sometimes experience carries the day. In retrospect i suppose i'm trying to find some middle ground so not to go off and attack both three and the entire team which i keep finding harder to do with each passing week. If only i had lics optimism. Yeah, my answer to you strummer would have been a shorter version of that, minus the last two sentences. The team as presently constituted has too many limitations on both ends of the floor--things that can be scouted and planned against.
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Post by dungeon ball on Feb 8, 2009 15:31:25 GMT -5
Hate to admit it, but it's all my fault. I acquired a nice HDTV a day before the Duke game, and it's all been downhill since then. I think the thing is possessed, although the Steelers won the Superbowl when I was watching it.
I'll return it, and revert back to the 20-inch. Things will return to normal when I have to squint to figure out who is on the court.
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