DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Dec 23, 2008 23:12:40 GMT -5
The Yankees continue to be a plague on baseball. Sometimes it pays off for them, sometimes it doesn't, but their continuing to grossly outspend everybody else isn't good for the game. Of course it's bad for baseball, but MLB has a feckless commissioner who won't dare challenge Hal Steinbrenner. The saving grace is that as the Yankess continue to spend, they fall short more often than not. Since 2003, they've spent close to $1 billion on talent and have come up short every time. Texiera is simply not worth that kind of money--a testament to the unnatural affection MLB owners have in Scott Boras clients. And any teams that sign former Texas Rangers do so at their own peril.
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Dec 24, 2008 0:00:27 GMT -5
There's no way they're signing Manny after this.
Anyway, I don't think it's healthy for the game for the Yankees to have signed 3 of the top 4 free agents, but, to their credit, the Yankees went out and avoided overpaying for the soft middle of the free agent market (think Carl Pavano, Jaret Wright). They signed CC Sabathia, easily the best FA pitcher, to a deal that is almost identical to Johan Santana's (1 year longer), and they signed Mark Teixeira, the best positional player, to apparently a market value deal (other teams drove that market, they didn't blow anyone away like Sabathia). As stated in another thread, I don't think he is worth what he is getting, and if the Red Sox sign Adam Dunn for 3 years at 42 million, I think they'll have made out pretty nicely relatively speaking.
I've said for years the Yankees should be leveraging their biggest asset more effectively. They are now using their vast financial resources to pay above slot in the draft, leading to a restocked pitching system replete with high ceiling arms, and they are signing the top players on the free agent market instead of overpaying for mediocrity (AJ Burnett aside, I hate that signing).
So, as RDF said, now you're seeing them spend their money wisely. I guess I got what I wanted...but it kind of feels gross.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Dec 24, 2008 1:07:25 GMT -5
Yanks cut 88.5 mil off the payroll when they lost Giambi, Abreu, Mussina, Pavano, Pettitte, etc. So they've added 4 guys (Tex, Sabathia, Burnett and Swisher) for a combined 72-73 mil/yr and everyone wants to cry foul. I'd say if you can get 3 of the top FAs, address needs while getting younger (for the most part) and slash roughly 15 mil off the payroll (5 mil even after they likely get back Pettitte), how are they spending any more uncontrollably than they did last year? Of course, this is accurate. But how many teams could cut 88 million off their payroll in a single season in the first place? The Twins tried something like that after the 2001 season, but a judge said they couldn't do it.
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Dec 24, 2008 2:05:24 GMT -5
this is fuzzy math Rockaway as you neglect arbitration raises and raises built into contracts. Chien Ming Wang just got a 1 million dollar raise via arbitration, with Xavier Nady and Brian Bruney still to go. Robbie Cano had a 3 million dollar raise built into his contract, and gets 1-3 million dollar raises every year for next 4 years. Nick Swisher's contract is similar. A-Rod's contract is frontloaded, so he'll be making 32 million this year, up from 27 last season. Damaso Marte is back at a pretty hefty raise. A million here, 3 million there, 5 million there...it adds up. Now, I think with next year's expiring contracts of 26 million b/t Matsui and Damon, you'll see a slight dip in payroll...but then Wang will up for an extension then. If Burnett is worth 16 per, he's worth at least 12, if not more, no? Joba is going to have to be extended soon to avoid arbitration with him, what's he going to cost? Do they get involved with Matt Holliday next offseason? What is ol Captain Leadfoot going to cost when he is a FA in 2 years...? The 200 million dollar payroll is here to stay. Yanks cut 88.5 mil off the payroll when they lost Giambi, Abreu, Mussina, Pavano, Pettitte, etc. So they've added 4 guys (Tex, Sabathia, Burnett and Swisher) for a combined 72-73 mil/yr and everyone wants to cry foul. I'd say if you can get 3 of the top FAs, address needs while getting younger (for the most part) and slash roughly 15 mil off the payroll (5 mil even after they likely get back Pettitte), how are they spending any more uncontrollably than they did last year?
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Post by RockawayHoya on Dec 24, 2008 2:23:37 GMT -5
this is fuzzy math Rockaway as you neglect arbitration raises and raises built into contracts. Chien Ming Wang just got a 1 million dollar raise via arbitration, with Xavier Nady and Brian Bruney still to go. Robbie Cano had a 3 million dollar raise built into his contract, and gets 1-3 million dollar raises every year for next 4 years. Nick Swisher's contract is similar. A-Rod's contract is frontloaded, so he'll be making 32 million this year, up from 27 last season. Damaso Marte is back at a pretty hefty raise. A million here, 3 million there, 5 million there...it adds up. Now, I think with next year's expiring contracts of 26 million b/t Matsui and Damon, you'll see a slight dip in payroll...but then Wang will up for an extension then. If Burnett is worth 16 per, he's worth at least 12, if not more, no? Joba is going to have to be extended soon to avoid arbitration with him, what's he going to cost? Do they get involved with Matt Holliday next offseason? What is ol Captain Leadfoot going to cost when he is a FA in 2 years...? The 200 million dollar payroll is here to stay. You make a good point, but are Sabathia, Burnett and Teixiera all making the average annual salary that the length of their respective contracts call for next year? I really don't have the answer, but I'm willing to bet they escalate year after year. So that means the first year of all their deals will be less than what they'll be making 5-8 years from now, and below the average annual value of their deals. If we're taking everyone's arbitration raises into account, then we also have to do the same for the new contracts. Anyways, the point I'm trying to make is that half of ESPN (and its website) and local media outlets outside of NYC are making it seem like the Yanks are spending 400+ mil for next year when that simply isn't the case. Worst case scenario, even with all the salary increases you mentioned, they'll be no higher than they were last year if they don't add anyone else to the mix. It wasn't enough to win last year, so I'm a little sick and tired of uninformed people (not on this talkboard) trying to say that the Yanks just bought another World Series when they're not even close to being a clear-cut favorite for 2009.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Dec 24, 2008 4:10:23 GMT -5
Nady, Damon, Matsui are all potential FA after this year--Pettitte is either gone now or after another year--and paycut, and with the signings--Yankees are still under $200 million by 20 something million and are going to move an OF and cut payroll even more-and contemplating not taking Pettitte back at all and going with young #5 starter--although I still expect them to get Pettitte back. It comes down to people hating when a team like the Yankees makes good acquisitions and use of their monetary advantage. Nobody cares when they are bad moves or the fact that since they have added payroll and been above/at/just below 200 million--they've not won a World Championship and progressively put a worse team out on field.-Yankees spending money is loved by players/agents and good luck with the whining/complaining. I dont' think these acquisitions ensure anything for the Yankees--other then having addressed major weaknesses and improving their team-which missed the postseason last year. Too much bitching/moaning simply because The Sox loving ESPN clowns are angry Teixiara ended up a Yankee. Bob Ryan sounded like he lost his children on ESPN News and the dark haired guy Steve Berthiune (sp) sounded as if he wanted to cry. Don't worry Sox fans--your "small market" team will still be championship contenders.
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Dec 24, 2008 4:56:15 GMT -5
Rockaway
I don't think any of the new deals are backloaded. A-Rod's they specifically frontloaded due to the 10 year length...they'll be paying less for his down years as he transitions from 3B to 1B or DH.
RDF
Here are the committed salaries for the 2010 season, assuming all the new signings make the same amount of money every year for the duration of their contracts:
A-Rod - 32 mill Sabathia - 23 Teix - 22.5 Jeter - 21 Burnett - 16.5 Rivera - 15 Posada - 13.1 Cano - 9 Marte - 4 Swisher - 6.75
That's 162.5 million to 10 guys in 2010...it's a 25 man roster. That does not include Wang, who will head to arbitration or sign a longterm deal after this season. That also doesn't include Kei Igawa's abomination of a deal. That's just those ten guys. They'll be at 200 million next year.
For 2009, now, to the list above, add: Matsui at 13 Damon at 13 Molina at 1 Wang at 5 Bruney at 1 Nady at 4
and they're at about 190 million for 16 guys in 2009 (i deduced about 5 million from the estimate to account for the raises in salary due Cano and Swisher between 2009 and 2010). So, as currently constructed, they're going to be above 200 million this season for sur. The only way to significantly reduce payroll is to trade Damon...moving Matsui means they'll have to eat some of his salary.
Like I said, the 200 million payroll is here to stay.
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Dec 24, 2008 5:03:28 GMT -5
also, to echo RDF's sentiment, the Boston Red Sox, in 2004 and 2007, set records for highest payroll of any World Series champion in history. They had the 2nd highest payroll in baseball both of those years...to the Yankees (by 57 million in 04 and 46 million in 07). They enjoyed a 27 million dollar payroll advantage over the 3rd highest payroll in 2004, and a 28 million dollar advantage over #3 in 2007.
they're both problematic for the competitive landscape in baseball.
imagine being a blue jays fan. they should just trade Roy Halladay now and start to reload.
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HoyaFanNY
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Post by HoyaFanNY on Dec 24, 2008 6:57:54 GMT -5
also, to echo RDF's sentiment, the Boston Red Sox, in 2004 and 2007, set records for highest payroll of any World Series champion in history. They had the 2nd highest payroll in baseball both of those years...to the Yankees (by 57 million in 04 and 46 million in 07). They enjoyed a 27 million dollar payroll advantage over the 3rd highest payroll in 2004, and a 28 million dollar advantage over #3 in 2007. they're both problematic for the competitive landscape in baseball. imagine being a blue jays fan. they should just trade Roy Halladay now and start to reload. that is only because the yankees haven't been good enough to win a world series the last 8 years. comparing the red sox payroll to the yankees is ridiculous. here are the payrolls for the 2 teams since '01. 2001 - ny 112m bos 110 2002 - ny 126m bos 108 2003 - ny 153m bos 99 2004 - ny 184m bos 127 2005 - ny 208m bos 124 2006 - ny 194m bos 120 2007 - ny 190m bos 143 2008 - ny 209m bos 133 that is an average of 51.5m per year more payroll the yankees had over that period. the yankees are in a league of their own when it comes to trying to buy a world title. the thing that bothers me the most is that this team spends 430m on three players but expects taxpayers to give them money for the new stadium. they are complete hypocrites. www.cnycentral.com/sports/sports_story.aspx?id=233091
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Dec 24, 2008 8:15:29 GMT -5
also, to echo RDF's sentiment, the Boston Red Sox, in 2004 and 2007, set records for highest payroll of any World Series champion in history. They had the 2nd highest payroll in baseball both of those years...to the Yankees (by 57 million in 04 and 46 million in 07). They enjoyed a 27 million dollar payroll advantage over the 3rd highest payroll in 2004, and a 28 million dollar advantage over #3 in 2007. they're both problematic for the competitive landscape in baseball. imagine being a blue jays fan. they should just trade Roy Halladay now and start to reload. that is only because the yankees haven't been good enough to win a world series the last 8 years. comparing the red sox payroll to the yankees is ridiculous. here are the payrolls for the 2 teams since '01. 2001 - ny 112m bos 110 2002 - ny 126m bos 108 2003 - ny 153m bos 99 2004 - ny 184m bos 127 2005 - ny 208m bos 124 2006 - ny 194m bos 120 2007 - ny 190m bos 143 2008 - ny 209m bos 133 that is an average of 51.5m per year more payroll the yankees had over that period. the yankees are in a league of their own when it comes to trying to buy a world title. Yeah, and the Red Sox' payroll is about double (if not more than that) the Twins/Rays/Marlins/Athletics/Indians/etc payroll. At this point, for a team in the AL East to have a shot at the playoffs, they need to get top 5 draft picks for a decade and have the Yankees run into a string of bad luck. Baseball's payroll system is BROKEN. There are maybe 5-6 teams that have a chance at the elite free agents while everyone else has to troll the scrap heap. And now the high revenue teams have figured out how to hog all the elite prospects by paying above slot (further exacerbating the problem of teams not being able to/willing to pay the premium that elite talent in the draft requires). So it's going to be even harder for teams like the Rays/Twins/Athletics/Indians/Blue Jays. And how much fun is it when two teams are basically guaranteed a playoff spot every year? You might a Rays team every decade, but if something goes wrong in Tampa, they can't go out and sign a star to fix whatever problem surfaced.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Dec 24, 2008 8:34:50 GMT -5
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Dec 24, 2008 9:24:45 GMT -5
Baseball's payroll system is BROKEN. There are maybe 5-6 teams that have a chance at the elite free agents while everyone else has to troll the scrap heap. And now the high revenue teams have figured out how to hog all the elite prospects by paying above slot (further exacerbating the problem of teams not being able to/willing to pay the premium that elite talent in the draft requires). So it's going to be even harder for teams like the Rays/ Twins/ Athletics/ Indians/ Blue Jays. And how much fun is it when two teams are basically guaranteed a playoff spot every year? You might a Rays team every decade, but if something goes wrong in Tampa, they can't go out and sign a star to fix whatever problem surfaced. If you think it's bad for the Rays/Twins/Athletics/Indians/Blue Jays, try selling it to the Royals, Pirates, Mariners and Reds, much less the sad-sack Rangers and Nationals. Rangers's atendance over the last five years: there's a pattern developing. 2,513,685 2,486,925 2,388,757 2,353,862 1,945,677 --
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Jack
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Post by Jack on Dec 24, 2008 9:29:51 GMT -5
Good news- baseball has a cap on what the Yankees can spend- it is called the 40 man roster, and it has actually worked to allow 2/3 of all teams to make the playoffs since the last time the Yankees won a World Series. No whinging from this BoSox fan- I would have liked Teixeira, but I still think the Yankees have some serious flaws and the Red Sox may still have better starting pitching, if Beckett bounces back and Lester is able to replicate last season's dominance.
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Gold Hoya
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Post by Gold Hoya on Dec 24, 2008 11:39:18 GMT -5
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Dec 24, 2008 12:50:38 GMT -5
Baseball's payroll system is BROKEN. There are maybe 5-6 teams that have a chance at the elite free agents while everyone else has to troll the scrap heap. And now the high revenue teams have figured out how to hog all the elite prospects by paying above slot (further exacerbating the problem of teams not being able to/willing to pay the premium that elite talent in the draft requires). So it's going to be even harder for teams like the Rays/ Twins/ Athletics/ Indians/ Blue Jays. And how much fun is it when two teams are basically guaranteed a playoff spot every year? You might a Rays team every decade, but if something goes wrong in Tampa, they can't go out and sign a star to fix whatever problem surfaced. If you think it's bad for the Rays/Twins/Athletics/Indians/Blue Jays, try selling it to the Royals, Pirates, Mariners and Reds, much less the sad-sack Rangers and Nationals. Rangers's atendance over the last five years: there's a pattern developing. 2,513,685 2,486,925 2,388,757 2,353,862 1,945,677 -- The Rangers are about to get good again. They have a ton of young talent, including more than enough good pitching prospects to overcome the likely failures/injuries. But again, they had to be bad for a while to accumulate that kind of talent (and they can't play in the free agent market either, unless they feel like spending ALL of their money on one guy like the did with A-Rod.)
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Dec 24, 2008 13:13:51 GMT -5
The Yankees clearly have the most financial resources, no one is disputing that. However, there is no disputing that the BoSox have the second most financial resources. How you can you dismiss the fact that the Red Sox World Series' victories both took place in years where they were 2nd only to the Yankees in payroll, and the jump from them to the next highest payroll in those years is the price of approximately 1 year of A-Rod's services? The Yankees may be in a world of their own, but the Red Sox are too in a world a little bit aways from the Yankees. Then there is another world inhabited by the Mets, Angels and Dodgers that is a little bit a way's from the Red Sox. also, to echo RDF's sentiment, the Boston Red Sox, in 2004 and 2007, set records for highest payroll of any World Series champion in history. They had the 2nd highest payroll in baseball both of those years...to the Yankees (by 57 million in 04 and 46 million in 07). They enjoyed a 27 million dollar payroll advantage over the 3rd highest payroll in 2004, and a 28 million dollar advantage over #3 in 2007. they're both problematic for the competitive landscape in baseball. imagine being a blue jays fan. they should just trade Roy Halladay now and start to reload. that is only because the yankees haven't been good enough to win a world series the last 8 years. comparing the red sox payroll to the yankees is ridiculous. here are the payrolls for the 2 teams since '01. 2001 - ny 112m bos 110 2002 - ny 126m bos 108 2003 - ny 153m bos 99 2004 - ny 184m bos 127 2005 - ny 208m bos 124 2006 - ny 194m bos 120 2007 - ny 190m bos 143 2008 - ny 209m bos 133 that is an average of 51.5m per year more payroll the yankees had over that period. the yankees are in a league of their own when it comes to trying to buy a world title. the thing that bothers me the most is that this team spends 430m on three players but expects taxpayers to give them money for the new stadium. they are complete hypocrites. www.cnycentral.com/sports/sports_story.aspx?id=233091
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Dec 24, 2008 13:26:42 GMT -5
2 big ifs, and also counting on no regression from Pedroia or Youkilis after MVP caliber seasons from both of them. The Yankees were not too far out of the playoffs last season after losing Posada and Wang for majorities of the season and getting nothing out of C, 2B and the #4 and #5 starter positions most of the season. Now, you've gotten them back, added Teixeira and Swisher to upgrade the offense after the departure of Abreu and Giambi, upgraded the defense with the departure of those 2 as well, replaced Moose and Pettitte with Sabathia and Burnett, and all the #4 and 5 starter starts will be helmed by Joba, who could be their best pitcher after CC, and Hughes/Kennedy, who which can't possibly pitch worse than they did last season. Barring catastrophic injury, they'll win 100 games. The Red Sox will be involved with Holliday next offseason I'd imagine, though I don't know who'd play CF if they landed him between Bay, Holliday, and Drew. Bay played CF in Pitt, no? Good news- baseball has a cap on what the Yankees can spend- it is called the 40 man roster, and it has actually worked to allow 2/3 of all teams to make the playoffs since the last time the Yankees won a World Series. No whinging from this BoSox fan- I would have liked Teixeira, but I still think the Yankees have some serious flaws and the Red Sox may still have better starting pitching, if Beckett bounces back and Lester is able to replicate last season's dominance.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Dec 24, 2008 13:54:03 GMT -5
Of course, this is accurate. But how many teams could cut 88 million off their payroll in a single season in the first place? The Twins tried something like that after the 2001 season, but a judge said they couldn't do it. LMAO at this. Of course, as HSBorat has ably pointed out, the Yankees didn't exactly have a bare cupboard even after extracting 88.5 mil from the payroll. The fannation article never opened for me, but I wonder if it referred to the strong rumor that the Yankees are going to sign ManRam. They may never come close to seeing $200 million again. Of course RDF and HSBorat are correct that spending money indiscriminately doesn't guarantee anything other than spending a lot of money, and the Yankees haven't always invested well of late. I think they have done quite well this year though, at least in terms of the players signed. Teixeira may not be worth $22 million a year, but I think he's going to do really well in NY. I too question the signing of Burnett, but it's not one that you look at and ask what the hell they are doing (see Pierre, Juan). There's at least a chance it could be a really good signing, and at worst, Burnett isn't Carl Pavano. I also think HSBorat has accurately described the sphere of teams. The Yankees may be Jupiter, but the Red Sox are at least Saturn, so there is no reason to feel sorry for them, either.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Dec 24, 2008 13:58:10 GMT -5
The Twins tried something like that after the 2001 season, but a judge said they couldn't do it. LMAO at this. Of course, as HSBorat has ably pointed out, the Yankees didn't exactly have a bare cupboard even after extracting 88.5 mil from the payroll. The fannation article never opened for me, but I wonder if it referred to the strong rumor that the Yankees are going to sign ManRam. They may never come close to seeing $200 million again. Of course RDF and HSBorat are correct that spending money indiscriminately doesn't guarantee anything other than spending a lot of money, and the Yankees haven't always invested well of late. I think they have done quite well this year though, at least in terms of the players signed. Teixeira may not be worth $22 million a year, but I think he's going to do really well in NY. I too question the signing of Burnett, but it's not one that you look at and ask what the hell they are doing (see Pierre, Juan). There's at least a chance it could be a really good signing, and at worst, Burnett isn't Carl Pavano. I also think HSBorat has accurately described the sphere of teams. The Yankees may be Jupiter, but the Red Sox are at least Saturn, so there is no reason to feel sorry for them, either. Here's another article that references the same thing as the fan nation article. It's not about Tex www.overthemonster.com/2008/12/23/700537/red-sox-interested-in-joe
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HoyaFanNY
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Post by HoyaFanNY on Dec 24, 2008 14:01:13 GMT -5
the reds payroll is actually pretty high (74m) for a so called small market team. they have arroyo and harang both getting hefty raises this year, so i bet they trade at least one if not both in july. cordero was a horrible signing at 12m per.
i think jason bay is a free agent after '09, so getting holliday won't be a problem. ellsbury is the red sox CF for the next 10 years. they are stuck with drew hoping he stays healthy.
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