assorted local election results

[Boz]

Slots are not gambling. Slots are what you do in Vegas while you and a couple of friends are waiting in the casino for that one other friend who always takes about as long as a girl from Jersey to get ready before you can all go out to Spearmint Rhino.

That said, if they want them in Maryland, have at it.

[DanMcQ]

Nov 6, 2008 16:29:37 GMT -5 Boz said:

Slots are not gambling. Slots are what you do in Vegas while you and a couple of friends are waiting in the casino for that one other friend who always takes about as long as a girl from Jersey to get ready before you can all go out to Spearmint Rhino.

That said, if they want them in Maryland, have at it.

Gary Williams needs a new recruiting angle. This could be it.

[HoyaSinceBirth]

maryland also approved early voting.

[hoyainspirit]

Slots in MD will save the horse racing industry here, which was withering on the vine. The recent closing of Pimlico for stabling and training is a clear indicator of the tragic current state of the industry. Despite racing's rich history in MD, the tracks could no longer compete with those in neighboring states WVA and DE, where purses and other incentives are subsidized from revenue generated from slots. Good move for the state.

[JohnJacquesLayup]

Nov 8, 2008 10:25:15 GMT -5 hoyainspirit said:

Slots in MD will save the horse racing industry here, which was withering on the vine. The recent closing of Pimlico for stabling and training is a clear indicator of the tragic current state of the industry. Despite racing's rich history in MD, the tracks could no longer compete with those in neighboring states WVA and DE, where purses and other incentives are subsidized from revenue generated from slots. Good move for the state.

Agreed. And looking down the road, I'd love to see the Pimlico area as a more desirable destination for entertainment, or at least be somewhat revived by the increased revenue slots will produce. Right now, despite being only about a mile north of the track, there is no reason to frequent the neighborhood.

[hifigator]

Nov 12, 2008 16:42:35 GMT -5 JohnJacquesLayup said:

Nov 8, 2008 10:25:15 GMT -5 hoyainspirit said:

Slots in MD will save the horse racing industry here, which was withering on the vine. The recent closing of Pimlico for stabling and training is a clear indicator of the tragic current state of the industry. Despite racing's rich history in MD, the tracks could no longer compete with those in neighboring states WVA and DE, where purses and other incentives are subsidized from revenue generated from slots. Good move for the state.

Agreed. And looking down the road, I'd love to see the Pimlico area as a more desirable destination for entertainment, or at least be somewhat revived by the increased revenue slots will produce. Right now, despite being only about a mile north of the track, there is no reason to frequent the neighborhood.

Here's a philosophical question: from my limited experience, parimutual gaming facilities tend to be either in the middle of nowhere or is bad neighborhoods. Does anyone know if the chicken came first or the egg? In other words, did the area become seedy because of the presence of gambling/underworld/general filth etc... or was the seedy area chosen specifically because the dog track/fronton/horse track? I understand some/much of this could have to do simply with zoning issues and many areas wouldn't allow such facilities. But I have noticed this trend for sure.

Ocala Jai Alai is in the middle of the country.

Tampa Jai Alai is on a main strip of questionable businesses -- tattoo parlors, cash-a-checks, massage parlors, gentlemen's clubs etc (was would be a better term here, since it's gone)

Orlando Jai Alai is in an older part of the city northeast of the newer town, and right next to one of several gentlemen's clubs.

Tampa Dog Track is in a very seedy part of town -- low income, high crime, etc...

Jacksonville Kennel Club is in a crappy part of town.

I've only been to Miami Jai Alai once, but I remember it as being pretty crappy as well.

Ft. Pierce Jai Alai is in the middle of nowhere, although in fairness, there isn't much around that interstate exit at all to begin with.


In any case, the only real exceptions that come to mind are Dania Jai Alai, which is simply in the older downtown Dania area, and Tampa Bay Downs, which is in a pretty nice area north of Tampa.


In any case, any thoughts on why this happens?

[hoyainspirit]

No idea. As well, I also have no idea nationwide whether you observation is true. I do know that the Fairgrounds, the racetrack in New Orleans, is located in a beautiful middle class neighborhood, with a strong neighborhood association which does an excellent job of keeping the track in check. Also, Pimlico is located on the boundary of Baltimore City and Baltimore County. While the City neighborhood leaves much to be desired, the County neighborhood is absolutely gorgeous.

[theexorcist]

Nov 8, 2008 10:25:15 GMT -5 hoyainspirit said:

Slots in MD will save the horse racing industry here, which was withering on the vine. The recent closing of Pimlico for stabling and training is a clear indicator of the tragic current state of the industry. Despite racing's rich history in MD, the tracks could no longer compete with those in neighboring states WVA and DE, where purses and other incentives are subsidized from revenue generated from slots. Good move for the state.

I've always hated the argument that slots will save horse racing. I hated it in Delaware, when they were debating legalizing slots.

Delaware now has legalized slots. The horse racing industry remains, though it's essentially an adjunct to slots.

When I think of Delaware, I don't think of its tradition of horse racing. There are certainly people associated with the horse racing industry that would have lost their jobs had horse racing left, but it's by no means a critical industry or one with lots of history.

There's a "race to the bottom" argument about people going elsewhere to gamble and keeping their spending in-state, but saving horse racing doesn't seem to hold much water.

[hoyainspirit]

While I know little about the racing industry in DE, I do know trainers here in MD that routinely run their horses there (and in WVA) because economically it makes sense to do so. As well, racing is important to this state, historically and economically. Roughly 10% of the open space in MD is devoted to horse farms, and the racing industry's economic impact is more than all other sports combined. Organized racing dates back to the mid 1700's in MD.

Personally, I do not play slots. It is a sucker's game. Rarely do I bet horses. But, IMO, saving the industry in MD is worth it, and slots certainly will help. Clearly, this is an issue over which reasonable people can, and will, disagree.

[hifigator]

Nov 13, 2008 10:28:36 GMT -5 theexorcist said:

Nov 8, 2008 10:25:15 GMT -5 hoyainspirit said:

Slots in MD will save the horse racing industry here, which was withering on the vine. The recent closing of Pimlico for stabling and training is a clear indicator of the tragic current state of the industry. Despite racing's rich history in MD, the tracks could no longer compete with those in neighboring states WVA and DE, where purses and other incentives are subsidized from revenue generated from slots. Good move for the state.

I've always hated the argument that slots will save horse racing. I hated it in Delaware, when they were debating legalizing slots.

Delaware now has legalized slots. The horse racing industry remains, though it's essentially an adjunct to slots.

When I think of Delaware, I don't think of its tradition of horse racing. There are certainly people associated with the horse racing industry that would have lost their jobs had horse racing left, but it's by no means a critical industry or one with lots of history.

There's a "race to the bottom" argument about people going elsewhere to gamble and keeping their spending in-state, but saving horse racing doesn't seem to hold much water.

I really think those are two separate arguments, but ones which are inextricably connected. The general argument is whether to allow gambling and if so, what types. The secondary argument is really one of competition -- whether that be competition from other gambling alternatives under the jurisdiction of those making the decision (state, local etc...) or whether the alternatives are not under the same jurisdiction -- other states, Indian reservations etc...

As to the former question, I think it is essentially a waste of time. People WILL gamble in some way shape or form. Obviously everyone wants their piece of the pie. I think the states have capitalized -- and in a negative way in my opinion -- on this through lottery tickets. I don't have the statistics in front of me, but it sure seems like most states have their own lottery. Not that any gambling has a positive expected return, but state lotteries are the biggest ripoff there is. In Florida's case for example, one-half of the monies taken in are paid out in prize money. That is a 50% "house advantage" or "rake." Those odds are absolutely dreadful. But the remotest of chances that someone can spend one dollar and become a millionaire entices hordes of people to the counter. There are other secondary factors to consider though. When Florida voted in the lottery, it was billed as lottery for education. The "profits" were supposed to fund the public school system. I have heard numbers from 2% to 20% of the funds actually ever making it to the school budgets. There are certainly some legitimate expenses -- advertising, the slight percentage that the vendor receives for selling the tickets and standard distribution costs are some of these. But from everything I have heard, these are relative drops in the bucket compared to the revenues. In any case, that is a discussion for another time. What the lottery has also done is severely cramp the pari-mutual industry. Jai-Alai was never really a "mainstream" activity, and in my opinion, that's a sad thing. Kids in Spain grow up playing Jai-Alai almost like they do soccer. But in America it has always been just one of many gambling options. In its heyday, there were a half-dozen frontons in Connecticut and at least 8 in Florida. Heck, there used to be frontons in Vegas. The problem is that from the gambling aspect, Jai-Alai can't effectively offer that gigantic life-changing prize. What Jai-Alai can offer is relatively wholesome entertainment and a reasonable chance to win a few dollars. Unfortunately, that isn't enough. The point in this is that the lottery is really what killed off jai-alai in Florida. Tampa, Palm Beach, Big Bend (Tallahassee) and Daytona Beach Jai-Alais are no more. I think Ft. Pierce is closed as well. The frontons still in existence are a shell of their former selves, with handles of maybe 10 to 20 percent of what they once were. This is all directly attributable to competition and primarily from the state lottery tickets. The bottom line is that of the people that are predisposed to gamble, there is a fixed amount of discretionary income for such activities. They will gamble roughly that amount somehow, someway each month. That is effectively the money which was removed from the Jai Alai industry and I would expect similar arguments in the case of the horse tracks in Delaware. When someone says that they need to add slots to "save the horse racing," there probably is very sound reasoning, as strange as it might sound on the surface.

As for the specific house advantages, they are something like this:

Lottery tickets 50%
Pari-mutual "exotics" 25-30%
Pari-Mutual "straight" wagers 18-20%
Slot machines 10 - 15%
Poker exotics 10%
Poker 5 - 10%
Blackjack (with perfect strategy) 4.5%

Obviously percentages don't always work out, but in the long run the numbers are very close to those above.


Getting back to the original question, I think that dismissing the argument of slots "being needed" to save horse racing is flawed. People do want certain options and they will gamble a certain amount SOMEWHERE. If you don't give that option and someone else does, then you are doomed.

Down here, the recent trend is to add poker rooms to pari-mutual facilities. Personally, I think that is a great option. Poker is very hot right now and has a very reasonable house advantage. Most of the "risk" comes from one's own abilities, and obviously good or bad luck. Secondly, it is "helping" the jai-alai and horse racing industries. The way the law is written in Florida, to qualify for a poker room, the facility must have a minimum amount of live performances. The frontons actually lose money on the jai-alai performances, but the alternative would be to not have jai-alai at all. As someone who played jai-alai for 10 years, (played, not gambled), I am glad to see the sport have at least a small chance to continue. I expect that horce racing is in a similar situation, just not nearly as dire as jai-alai.

[theexorcist]

But why do you need to keep jai-alai? If people aren't interested in it, let it die.

Example. Let's say that MLS or the WNBA come up with the idea that slots should be allowed at RFK/the Verizon Center on game days with the justification of saving the sport. Why?

[hifigator]

I understand exorcist. As a "gambling" industry, it did very well prior to the lottery. But just as dog track and horse tracks suffered, the jai-alai industry did as well. People require a good bit more pay than horses and dogs. I'm not saying that fiscally, subsidizing it is the "smart" choice, but since there is an interest in controlling gambling and not letting it go rampant and unlimited, by requiring a simulcast venue or a poker venue to also offer a live season, a secondary benefit can be the survival of the sport. For that much, I can find some solace.

[strummer8526]

Nov 13, 2008 13:53:43 GMT -5 hifigator said:

I understand exorcist. As a "gambling" industry, it did very well prior to the lottery. But just as dog track and horse tracks suffered, the jai-alai industry did as well. People require a good bit more pay than horses and dogs. I'm not saying that fiscally, subsidizing it is the "smart" choice, but since there is an interest in controlling gambling and not letting it go rampant and unlimited, by requiring a simulcast venue or a poker venue to also offer a live season, a secondary benefit can be the survival of the sport. For that much, I can find some solace.

For the record, I was very much kidding in the Ayers/GULC thread. I assumed we would all realize that hoping for complete strangers to die based on petty disagreements on a message board was laughably over-the-top. It appears that I was mistaken about the "laughably" part. Apologies around.

Has the season started yet?

[hifigator]

Here is another election tidbit I read about in today's paper:

Where given a chance to, voters continued to show, as they often have, that they are far less hysterical about marijuana than nearly the whole politician-police-prison circuit is.

...

Votes in a Hawaiian county istructed authorities to treat marijuana as a low-priority enforcement matter. (The local police naturally announced right away that they'd do no such thing.
And there's this development, which hasn't attracted the notice it deserves: New Hampshire will have a female-majority senate, the first such in the Country.

...

Missouri's voters approved a plan to gradually increase renewable-source energy to 15 percent by 2021.

[hifigator]

Nov 13, 2008 13:26:44 GMT -5 theexorcist said:

But why do you need to keep jai-alai? If people aren't interested in it, let it die.

Example. Let's say that MLS or the WNBA come up with the idea that slots should be allowed at RFK/the Verizon Center on game days with the justification of saving the sport. Why?

I didn't really answer your question. From a strictly financial point of view, it is hard to justify continuing an operation in which you lose money. That is the case with jai-alai. The principle in this case is strictly "handle." For those who don't know, "handle" refers to the amount of money that passes through the windows. That is all that the house cares about. I don't know how many times through the years, I would hear someone say "you play jai-alai? ... you know that's rigged don't you?" First things first: I actually played jai-alai. I was in a weekly amateur league and competed in numerous tournaments around the state. I even tinkered with the idea of trying to turn pro during the strike when they were dying for players. But yes, I also enjoyed gambling on it sometimes. The game isn't "fixed," at least not in the traditional sense. The principle in pari-mutual wagering is that all money for a specific bet is put into a pool. The house takes a set percentage from the pool and then the rest is distributed evenly among all winning wagers. The point is that the house has zero incentive to fix a game. There are unique qualities to jai-alai with respect to the game itself, but fundamentally it is just like dogs or horses. The "favorite" will have more money wagered on him and will therefore pay off less if he wins. Likewise the longshot has less wagered on him and will pay off more. Other assorted wagers -- quinella, exacta/perfecta, trifecta, superfecta and pick 6 for example -- are simply combinations of players to finish in certain order. But each wager has its own pool and it is treated the same way. The point is that the only interest the house has is to get as much money through the window. With competition from things like the lottery, there is a smaller and smaller potential pool of money. Less money means a lower handle. A lower handle means less revenues to the fronton. But expenses don't drop proportionally. That is the problem they face. Yes, it's part of everybody's business and a fundamental key to doing business. But when the state plays as the house and has a 50% rake, then they (state) has a strong vested interest in growing lottery sales. If as jai alai players, fronton employees, concessionairs, janitors, security, announcers, parking attendents etc... are casualties then so be it. That is why I think it is reasonable to offer assistance, since it's the very presence of the lottery which caused the demise to begin with. What's the saying: you can't fight city hall?

Does that make my position clearer?

[rosslynhoya]

There was a jai alai strike?

[hifigator]

Nov 14, 2008 11:17:13 GMT -5 rosslynhoya said:

There was a jai alai strike?

Yes. It involved the players union for World Jai-Alai, which was the parent company that owned four frontons: Miami, Ft. Pierce, Ocala and Tampa. It was full of all the typical baggage as well. Some players crossed over and were demonized by those who didn't. Of course the play suffered as many who should still be in the amateur leagues were now "professionals" and of course they also had to endure the title of "scabs."

I was never really on the inside to know exactly what the serious complaints were, but I'll never forget one quote that was in the paper. A back-courter who played under the name "Kosca" said that "they treat us like dogs at a dog track."

After the strike was settled, many of the strikers were essentially punished by being sent to play in Ocala rather than Tampa or Miami. Miami was always the "premier" venue, although non-World Jai-Alai frontons, Orlando and Dania are very competitive with Miami. In any case, the Jai-Alai in Ocala changed radically over a 2 year period. First it was typical, as it had been for years: mediocre with players consisting primarily of up and coming young players who were gaining experience as well as a mix of aging veterans on the back end of their careers. There were also two staples in local guys from the area -- Dave, a tall back-courter who was very energetic and a fan favorite and Dale, a wormy little front courter who could catch everything but couldn't throw hard enough to break a balloon. Then during the strike the play was awful. Many of the guys that played in our league and competed in our amateur tournaments were called up. Then after the strike, we had the best jai-alai Ocala had ever seen as greats like Francisco, Aramayo, Arra II, Eusabio, Elgueta, Butler, Daniel and Elordieta filled the roster. Unfortunately I think those days are gone forever. You can still get that caliber of jai-alai at Miami, Orlando and Dania, but I still think the sport is living on borrowed time. It's too bad, because it really is a very entertaining sport to watch. I think in some ways the "gambling" angle gives it an unfair stigma. When I was in college, I took many people down for their first jai alai experience. Many of them weren't gamblers and therefore didn't figure they would have much fun, but just watching the athleticism and the sport itself is fun if the play is good.

Curious, any other jai-alai fans? Did any of you go to any of the Connecticut frontons when they were around? The only name I remember from up there was "Hoey." He played one season in Ocala after he moved down from Hartford.