Z
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Post by Z on Dec 12, 2008 2:00:23 GMT -5
RDF i have to disagree, andy was relatively brave to make the admission he did - when you put him up against the mccgwires, sosas, pudges, etc. of the world he smells like a rose.
ive yet to meet a true yankees fan that is genuinely excited about the CC move. everyone recognizes that we could have had a better pitcher cheaper that wanted to pitch in NY last year in johan; now we have a fat, likely to break down guy guy that doesnt want to pitch in the bronx, hasnt pitched well in the bronx or the postseason and yankee fans will be ready to crucify at a moments notice. the opt-out doesnt matter, if he ends up stinking early he will keep the money he's already going to get and get tips from brown, pavano, igawa, irabu, etc. on how to deal with the pesky NY media and if he is doing well no one will bat an eye at re-signing him. if we get four good years from him ill call it a good move. yanks had to make a splash, i wish they had done so with tex, lowe and a one year deal for smoltz.
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HoyaFanNY
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Post by HoyaFanNY on Dec 12, 2008 7:40:44 GMT -5
sabathia took the yanks to the cleaners. the original offer was $40m more than any other team and he got them to throw in another year at $20m on top of that. now, his buddy cameron is probably going to NY. this move was desperation by the yanks because they have been kicking themselves for months for not making the santana deal last year because they loved cabrera, hughes, and kennedy.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Dec 18, 2008 23:34:12 GMT -5
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Dec 19, 2008 10:19:43 GMT -5
Do you think its a bluff or the real deal? From the outside it looks suspiciously like Boras is getting a taste of his own medicine. I imagine, Boras claimed he had a 10 year, $200m deal on the table from an AL team in an effort to get the Sox to up their bid. The Sox instead walked away, leaving Boras and Teixeira with lesser deals from the Angels, Nationals and Orioles; hoping that Boras will see the light and come scampering back for their final offer. Either that, or there really is another bid at 10 years from the Nationals or the Angels, and Teixeira's going to head there soon, but it's strange we haven't heard those rumors out there. Either way, it appears the Sox are not going to be bullied into paying more for Teixeira than they want to.
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Post by HeartAttackHoya on Dec 19, 2008 11:29:50 GMT -5
as a SOx fan, I hope its for real. Texeira is a good player. Marginal all-star. NOT a superstar and dont think he ever will be. No need to pay him that kind of money. Re-up Youk. Keep building up the great young talent we have coming up and bring in a Derek Lowe please
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Dec 19, 2008 11:47:32 GMT -5
You don't think Teixeira is an all-star? Really? What qualifies as an all-star for you?
He's a good defensive 1B who bats .290, with an OPS of 1.0, knocks in 120+ RBIs a year, blasts 30+ HRs, scores 100+ runs and tallies 300+ total bases. Oh, and he's only 28...which is the prime for most batters.
But, you want Derek Lowe back? You baffle me, sir.
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Post by HeartAttackHoya on Dec 19, 2008 12:27:42 GMT -5
6 years of MLB service - 1 all-star game = marginal all star.
Overpaying for Lowe for 2-3 years > Overpaying for Texeira for 8-10 years
not to mention, how poorly he has hit @ fenway and the fact that he's had teamates call him out at every stop he's been at.
I think we have sufficient run production and a couple of studs waiting to be called up..
your thoughts?
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Dec 19, 2008 12:48:46 GMT -5
Do you think its a bluff or the real deal? From the outside it looks suspiciously like Boras is getting a taste of his own medicine. I imagine, Boras claimed he had a 10 year, $200m deal on the table from an AL team in an effort to get the Sox to up their bid. The Sox instead walked away, leaving Boras and Teixeira with lesser deals from the Angels, Nationals and Orioles; hoping that Boras will see the light and come scampering back for their final offer. Either that, or there really is another bid at 10 years from the Nationals or the Angels, and Teixeira's going to head there soon, but it's strange we haven't heard those rumors out there. Either way, it appears the Sox are not going to be bullied into paying more for Teixeira than they want to. I wasn't in the room, but I would be willing to bet that your first thought is exactly what happened. Boras is pulling his usual shenanigans by attempting to get a team to bid against itself. John Henry called his bluff. This isn't over.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Dec 19, 2008 13:49:05 GMT -5
6 years of MLB service - 1 all-star game = marginal all star. Overpaying for Lowe for 2-3 years > Overpaying for Texeira for 8-10 years not to mention, how poorly he has hit @ fenway and the fact that he's had teamates call him out at every stop he's been at. I think we have sufficient run production and a couple of studs waiting to be called up.. your thoughts? Just because he wasn't voted into the all-star game by the fans doesn't determine whether he is an all-star caliber player. I don't regret paying all those wheelbarrels of money to Manny who we "overpaid" for -- it won us two world series. Therefore I have no issue with "overpaying" for the top bat in the market, one who is only 28 and who is amazingly consistant, a solid fielder and a good marketing face. Oh yeah, twice he's played all 162 games, leading MLB. First Basemen picked over him in ASG: 2003 - Delgado and Sweeney (Giambi replaced Sweeney) 2004 - Giambi, Ortiz and Ken Harvey 2005 - Fan Choice 2006 - Ortiz, Konerko, Thome 2007 - Traded and switched leagues on July 30, just two weeks before the ASG. 2008 - Traded and switched leagues on July 27, just two weeks before the ASG. I'll pull a fact right off his wiki page[/u][/url]: "In 2005, Teixeira became the third switch-hitter in MLB history, after Eddie Murray and Chipper Jones, to hit at least 20 home runs in each of his first three seasons. He is also one of just five players in Major League history to hit at least 100 home runs in his first three seasons, joining Hall of Famers Joe DiMaggio, Ralph Kiner, and Eddie Matthews as well as current first base star, Albert Pujols. Other players - Mark McGwire, Jose Canseco, Todd Helton, Ryan Howard - have hit 100+ home runs in their first three full seasons, but these players had all played partial seasons prior to playing their first three full seasons. His 2005 total of 144 RBI is a Major League record for a switch hitter."
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Dec 19, 2008 13:52:47 GMT -5
Teams get in trouble when they pay All Star money to players that aren't All Star talents. Teixeira's an All Star talent--he's worth over paying for (though maybe not $200 million overpaying)
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Dec 19, 2008 13:53:57 GMT -5
Teams get in trouble when they pay All Star money to players that aren't All Star talents. Teixeira's an All Star talent--he's worth over paying for (though maybe not $200 million overpaying) I agree that $200m over 10 years is probably too much; however, $175 over 8 years seems pretty reasonable for a longterm solution at 1b or 3b.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Dec 19, 2008 13:55:14 GMT -5
Teams get in trouble when they pay All Star money to players that aren't All Star talents. Teixeira's an All Star talent--he's worth over paying for (though maybe not $200 million overpaying) I agree that $200m over 10 years is probably too much; however, $175 over 8 years seems pretty reasonable for a longterm solution at 1b or 3b. That sounds a lot more reasonable. And the Red Sox are in that great position where they have almost unlimited cash and a lot of young, cheap talent.
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Post by HeartAttackHoya on Dec 19, 2008 14:11:15 GMT -5
my quick google search results
“The statistics will be there, but this is not a player who will make anyone else on the team better,” said a former teammate of Teixeira’s. “The numbers indicate an elite player, but if you watch him every day you will realize he is a very good player, not elite.”
Manny made everyone around him better, no questions asked. Yes, overpaid, but no teamate would ever question his value to a team.
Tex puts up nice numbers. Doesnt scare anyone. Doesnt cause anyone to pitch around him or force anyone to pitch to someone. For the money he's looking for, even at a inflated poor free agent class value does not work for me.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Dec 19, 2008 14:25:38 GMT -5
my quick google search results “The statistics will be there, but this is not a player who will make anyone else on the team better,” said a former teammate of Teixeira’s. “The numbers indicate an elite player, but if you watch him every day you will realize he is a very good player, not elite.” Manny made everyone around him better, no questions asked. Yes, overpaid, but no teamate would ever question his value to a team. Tex puts up nice numbers. Doesnt scare anyone. Doesnt cause anyone to pitch around him or force anyone to pitch to someone. For the money he's looking for, even at a inflated poor free agent class value does not work for me. I think Vlad would disagree. His average went up 30+ points with the addition of Teixeira in the lineup. Look it up.
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Dec 19, 2008 14:34:34 GMT -5
Not sure how any baseball player makes his teammates better in what boils down to a sport of completely individual matchups. The only place where he could make his teammates better is in the field, and his range at 1B probably does, in fact, make his 2B able to cover more ground up the middle. (i know i know, protection in the lineup, i think that's overrated, A-Rod hit 50 HRs 2 years back with bobby abreu and jason giambi sandwiching him)
That said, I somewhat agree with HeartAttack in that Teixeira's not worth the contract he is getting. Not b/c he isn't a very good player. He is. But...he doesn't play a premium defensive position (despite him playing it extremely well), and the money he is seeking is for a superstar at a premium defensive position. Using OPS+ to illustrate my point, the 2 best players in baseball, IMO, are A-Rod and Albert Pujols.
A-Rod's career OPS+ is 147. He plays good defense at 3b, a premium defensive position. (he should be playing SS, but that is neither here not there). His deal is worth about 27 per.
Pujols' career OPS+ is a staggering 170. He plays a good 1B. His contract is a steal at 14 million per, he should be making double that. So say Pujols is worth 7 years at 200 million...
Teixeira's career OPS+ is 134. He wants Pujols value over 8 years and isn't near the same class of hitter as Big Al.
Adam Dunn's career OPS+ is 130+. He will probably sign for 3 years at 40 million.
I'm hoping the Yanks sign Dunn.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Dec 19, 2008 14:37:44 GMT -5
I don't disagree with your logic artist formerly known as Borat, especially considering Youk played a pretty solid 1B. However, as to Dunn, the Sox can't use Dunn. He is a DH and we have a big ol' Papi there for now. I don't have any problem with the team spending $175m over 8 years on Teixeira. I would question them if they went beyond that.
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Dec 19, 2008 14:49:22 GMT -5
Dunn's been a 1B/LF his whole career in the NL, he could do that at Fenway. I think the market for him is crazily undervalued right now. I'd much prefer to have a shorter contract like his, flexibility is something the Sox have had in recent years and it's something I wish Cash would try and emulate. Also, the Sox have Lars Anderson in the minors, the dude is a stud. I think they'd be better off saving their money for later FA pitching classes. Roy Halladay is a FA in 2 years I believe...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2008 15:14:28 GMT -5
Also, the Sox have Lars Anderson in the minors, the dude is a stud. A year ago, Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy were "studs". Sometimes the proven commodity is a pretty good option.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Dec 19, 2008 15:21:13 GMT -5
Interesting post today on Teixiera's value at Beyond the Box Score; but, perhaps more interestingly, there was a post the other day on Marginal Payrolls[/u][/url], or the cost per win for each team. Interesting.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 19, 2008 15:26:45 GMT -5
Teixiera's value is in his consistency. Pujols is underpaid -- so keep that in mind, too. But the key thing with Tex isn't that he isn't nearly as likely as a lot of players to decline quickly as a hitter or fielder.
He's also a consistent player. I don't think he has big platoon splits, he's well-rounded (contact, power, patience, fielding) -- one or two dimensional players are more easily exposed in the playoffs where matchups and tactics are emphasized.
There's a TON of value in that in both his day to day consistency and his relative low risk due to age, position, track record, etc.
That said, I can see both sides of the argument. Who wants to pay for a 1B who's not a HOF?
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