njcoach
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
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Post by njcoach on Oct 23, 2008 7:29:02 GMT -5
I remember being at McDonough for the Holy Cross game when Duren schooled the much balleyhooed Perry. Backed him into the post so often I thought Ronnie was going to cry.
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HoyaChris
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by HoyaChris on Oct 23, 2008 7:45:59 GMT -5
I would be inclined to give NBE the benefit of the doubt with regard to their ranking of Duren. There should be no question in anybody's mind that John Duren was a better college player than any of those currently listed ahead of him. On the other hand, Duren only played 9 Big East games (three of them in the Big East tournament). It is hard to rank him higher than very good players who played 7 or 8 times as many games. Don't confuse me with facts when I am relying on memory! But Duren was the FIRST MVP of the First BET! Wow... only 7-8 games? Including the BET? Saxa my friend your memory is fading fast. John Duren was the MVP - of the first Big East regular season. Craig Shelton was the MVP of the first BET. |
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SirSaxa
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by SirSaxa on Oct 23, 2008 13:16:50 GMT -5
Hah!
Hoya Chris.....
Whoa! My memory is being exposed yet again!
Good thing you are around to be my personal "Fact checker"!
Hope you are well, weathering our global financial crisis, and looking forward to another exciting year of Hoya Hoops!
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Post by grokamok on Oct 23, 2008 15:30:31 GMT -5
McNamara was an integral part of the 'Cuse NCAA championship team, could be said to be the leader of their team for the better part of three years, started all four years, produced two BET titles (and was the overwhelming key to such in his senior year), was an All-Big East freshman, second team as a sophomore, first team both as a junior and as a senior, held the BE record for most 3s made and free throw percentage and scored over 2000 points. Now, there may be 50 BE players who were better; certainly there are 50 BE players who had more of an impact in the pros. But in putting someone up there ahead of him, one would have a pretty high hurdle to leap. We'll have to see what the rest of the list looks like and if there is an unranked list of "others considered" offered by the author before we can really make a call. Oh, and Syracuse sucks.  I understand your points, however, I would argue that history will redeem its currently popular notion of rating certain beneficiaries of the "dead-talent" era of college basketball, and Gerry McNamara will be one who suffers from the revisionist corrections to come. I am merely arguing for acknowledgment of a revisionist correction sooner, rather than later. History at some point will acknowledge the weakened state of collegiate basketball during the late 90s/early 00s due to NBA draft rules and will move to downgrade "historical" accomplishments relative to other eras. Your point about eras is completely valid and certainly stats don't tell the whole story. If that profile had been generated during the eighties, it might represent a top 25 performer. Still, I think it would be hard to argue strenuously against his inclusion in the top 50 until we see the players left out. For us, I would still expect Smitty, Wingate, Iverson, Zo, Reggie, Sleepy and Patrick to be on the list (with JG, Duren and Sweetney, that would be 1/5 of the list). The last five are a lock and I'd not like to see McNamara ahead of the other two. Shelton is a question based on the one year in the league (the same reason Duren is as low as #45), and Othella, Deke, Michael Jackson and Bill Martin might not have made the cut. Tillmon, Page, JYD, Brandon and Braswell are very unlikely. That's 10 one could compare to GMac for #50 (or to Vaughan, Knight, Foye, or Craig Smith for their spots) and that's just Hoyas. |
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DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by DFW HOYA on Oct 23, 2008 15:51:58 GMT -5
Duren should be rated higher and had he played four years in the BE, he would have, but remember the rest of the league has only one year to judge him on. As for the others:
50. Gerry McNamara: The first to fall off the list. A better choice: UConn's Chris Smith.
49. Jeff Green: Underrated for this list.
48. Mark Bryant: Underrated as well. Did a lot for the Hall in their better years.
47. Caron Butler: Had the numbers, but I would probably not have picked him.
46. Clyde Vaughan: Like Duren, three years of his career outside the BE.
45. John Duren: See above.
44. Brandin Knight. Not in top 50.
43. Randy Foye: Not in top 50.
42. Hakim Warrick: Underrated.
41. Craig Smith: BC players tend to be underrated in general, and Smith was a prime example. If he played at Syr or UConn in this era, the sky was the limit.
40. Mike Sweetney: I suspect his numbers will continue down the list as time goes on, if only because the numbers he put up will be dismissed by some fans in light of only one NCAA and one NIT bid, and his NBA career didn't win him any superlatives. An important player in the GU realm (imagine what would those teams have been like without him?) but less so in BE circles, who will probably elevate Green past him at some point.
39. John Pinone: Ummm...no.
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Post by grokamok on Oct 30, 2008 15:00:50 GMT -5
As someone said before about another list, this one has become craptastic. A focus on apologetics for certain (*cough* Pitt *cough*) players (Brian Shorter somehow on par with Dana Barros, John Wallace and Mark Jackson? Really?) and a focus on stats to include decent players from crappy teams who made little impact but put up big numbers because they were their team's focus. My earlier note was written when the list was still in the 40s. No way Smitty makes the list now and Wingate is highly unlikely, I suppose - only the five locks plus JG, Duren and Sweets will be in this farce. w3.nbebasketball.com/index.php/big-east-all-time-top-50/ |
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idhoya
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Post by idhoya on Oct 30, 2008 15:05:16 GMT -5
Just the fact that John Pinone is on the last removes all credibility to me.
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by SFHoya99 on Oct 30, 2008 15:23:22 GMT -5
I think Mark Jackson would be surprised to see he was only a lit bit better than Dan Callindrino.
Wow.
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Filo
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by Filo on Oct 30, 2008 15:36:26 GMT -5
That list has become comical it is so bad. And I don't even have as much of a problem with Calandrillo as I do with some of the others.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Oct 30, 2008 16:04:38 GMT -5
As someone said before about another list, this one has become craptastic. A focus on apologetics for certain (*cough* Pitt *cough*) players (Brian Shorter somehow on par with Dana Barros, John Wallace and Mark Jackson? Really?) and a focus on stats to include decent players from crappy teams who made little impact but put up big numbers because they were their team's focus. My earlier note was written when the list was still in the 40s. No way Smitty makes the list now and Wingate is highly unlikely, I suppose - only the five locks plus JG, Duren and Sweets will be in this farce. w3.nbebasketball.com/index.php/big-east-all-time-top-50/Yeah, I can't believe Charles Smith isn't going to make it. What are your five locks? I come up with six: Ewing, Sleepy, Iverson, Zo, Mutumbo and Reggie. I guess Dikembe would probably be the lowest ranked of that group. |
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Post by grokamok on Oct 30, 2008 16:33:54 GMT -5
Deke isn't in the same position as the other five. He only played three years (redshirted) and didn't have the impact Iverson had in his two (though one could argue AI's impact struck both ways). It took a while for him to develop and Mourning was the dominant presence on those teams (although Smitty was definitely the man in 89), though Deke definitely picked up a good portion of the slack in his senior year when Mourning injured his foot. I love the guy but, personally, I'd have put Smitty or Wingate in ahead of him.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Oct 30, 2008 17:37:27 GMT -5
Deke isn't in the same position as the other five. He only played three years (redshirted) and didn't have the impact Iverson had in his two (though one could argue AI's impact struck both ways). It took a while for him to develop and Mourning was the dominant presence on those teams (although Smitty was definitely the the man in 89), though Deke definitely picked up a good portion of the slack in his senior year when Mourning injured his foot. I love the guy but, personally, I'd have put Smitty or Wingate in ahead of him. I just can't see someone like Billy Curley being on the list and not Deke. The guy was an all-american, two-time first team All-BE and BE DPOY. |
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Post by grokamok on Oct 30, 2008 18:58:55 GMT -5
Interesting contrast to Curley. On the one hand you have Deke, who was a huge force on the boards and defensively his last two seasons but playing second fiddle as a big man to Zo (and, perhaps, benefiting from it when both were in the lineup). On the other you had Curley, a bit undersized in the post (since he played there most of the time against taller players) but very productive offensively and in rebounding at both ends of the floor for four straight years and BC's leader the entire time.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Oct 31, 2008 9:01:08 GMT -5
I guess it depends on how much weight you give to the criteria of "the degree of impact he made for his program or the league."
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