Boz
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Post by Boz on Oct 13, 2011 14:13:49 GMT -5
I'm still kind of baffled that Cain is in the lead in most polls. I mean, this guy barely has a campaign staff, and he's not spending any time in Iowa or New Hampshire. It's like Fred Thompson's strategy, but it's actually working. My working theory is that Cain is just a holding place for the anti-Romney vote at this point, and his support will wither once a credible challenger comes along. I don't know if you can say he's in the lead in most polls. He's taken a lead in a couple of recent polls, but overall, Romney is still ahead. Cain, however, is matching Romney in head-to-head polls with Obama, which is pretty significant. Cain amazes me too. At this point, (yes, I know that no one has voted yet, but they've been at this a while), I don't know if you can still call him a placeholder. I think he IS the anti-Romney, the Tea Party favorite. Sure a lot can still happen. But I don't see Perry or Bachmann making a comeback. He's got no substance, and she, while very articulate, is still too polarizing with some of her comments. Gingrich may make a late rise from the dead, but that's about it. No one else is getting in. Huntsman is just going nowhere. He's like a less conservative version of Romney, so what's the point? I actually don't mind him too terribly, for all that I make fun of him. If this were a foreign policy election, he'd have a good chance, I think. But it's not. I also love how everyone at MSNBC talks about how the Republicans would nominate Huntsman if they were smart. Gee, thanks, guys. Remind me in 2016 to tell you how smart you'd be to nominate Ben Nelson or Joe Manchin.  I think Cain's success is actually not all that hard to explain. He speaks very clearly and, whether or not you think 9-9-9 is viable, it is a very simple plan that everyone can understand. And it makes sense to most people too. Cain also has a lot of Chris Christie in him. He speaks very bluntly, but he does so in a very entertaining and endearing fashion, so it doesn't sound mean or harsh. And he speaks Tea Party. With Perry and Bachmann failing, and Santorum never getting going in the first place, he is the natural candidate to garner conservative support. Like I said, so many, many things can still happen, but at this point, I think Cain will be Romney's main challenger, but in the end Romney will get the nod. |
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hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Oct 13, 2011 16:32:28 GMT -5
9-9-9, while "simple", is simply a joke. It is not easy to understand, either. The devil is in the details. Most working and middle-class Americans would pay a total federal tax burden of 18 percent — 9 percent on income earned, plus a 9 percent sales tax on everything they buy. According to the Congressional Budget Office, under the current tax system, the lowest-earning 20 percent of American households, those with household incomes of roughly $20,000 or less, pay an average of 4 percent of their income in federal taxes. That's quite a jump for poor people! Unlike rich people, poor people have to spend pretty much all their money just to live. They don't have the luxury of investing, thus saving tax dollars.
Middle income people get screwed, too. Again, according to the CBO, people making roughly $38,000 to $60,000 pay just over 14 percent in federal taxes, so their tax burden jumps as well.
The top 1 percent of wage earners, those making over $300,000 per year, now pay an average of 29.5 percent of their income in federal taxes. They would drop to a maximum of 18 percent. Sounds like an unfair shift of tax burden from rich to poor.
In reality, rich people will pay even less in taxes. While this goofy plan grabs 9 percent of working folks pay, it taxes capital gains at zero percent, dividends at zero percent(taxing dividends is something of a problem, but that's another discussion), and completely abolishes the estate tax. Guess who pays estate taxes - only people with estates valued at more than $5 million! This plan completely screws poor and middle income people by increasing their taxes, while giving huge breaks to wealthy folks. It's a gigantic tax shift from the wealthy to the poor and middle classes. It's just not fair. 9-9-9 only accelerates the demise of the middle class, and creates greater hardship on those already poor.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Oct 13, 2011 16:53:28 GMT -5
I think Boz nails Cain's appeal--he projects the same kind of optimism in America's future that Reagan did and he does so authentically. People looking for an anti-Romney candidate are going to be drawn to him for that reason, among others.
I also agree with Hoyainspirit about Cain's 9-9-9 plan: it hits the poor and middle class really hard. I think the tax code needs to get flatter and simpler, but Cain takes it too far. Not to mention that it creates another federal tax to be raised (and one that would be seem to be easier to raise than an income tax). I think a lot of conservatives / Republicans would agree with those points, they just hadn't gotten around to worrying about Cain as an actual force before his recent surge in the polls and so they weren't particularly worried about criticizing the plan.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Oct 13, 2011 17:38:47 GMT -5
You can debate the data points of 9-9-9 to death. It totally misses the point. At least the point I was trying to make.
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Oct 13, 2011 18:35:31 GMT -5
Current law taxes the first $106,800 of earned income at 6.2% as the Social Security tax and all income of 1.45% for Medicare tax. So, currently, the combined tax on all those employed, up to $106,800 is 7.65%. The 4% the CBO gives must mean that, on average, low income people receive 3.65% relief through the Earned Income Tax Credit. I note there has been a temporary 2% reduction in the Social Security tax this year.
The beauty of a 9% (or whatever rate) national sales tax is it forces those who today receive their wages in cash or in other hidden places to actually pay taxes. Believe me, there are many who fall into this category.
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Oct 13, 2011 18:55:52 GMT -5
Herman Cain is Ross Perot. He almost has the same background even. He's a protest vote in bad economic times when everyone is fed up with the status quo. And Perot lead in plenty of polls very late into the '92 election year until he quit.
So I don't know what to think of him since it's too early to tell, but votes are out there for outsiders.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Oct 13, 2011 19:20:41 GMT -5
9-9-9, while "simple", is simply a joke. It is not easy to understand, either. The devil is in the details. Most working and middle-class Americans would pay a total federal tax burden of 18 percent — 9 percent on income earned, plus a 9 percent sales tax on everything they buy. According to the Congressional Budget Office, under the current tax system, the lowest-earning 20 percent of American households, those with household incomes of roughly $20,000 or less, pay an average of 4 percent of their income in federal taxes. That's quite a jump for poor people! Unlike rich people, poor people have to spend pretty much all their money just to live. They don't have the luxury of investing, thus saving tax dollars. Middle income people get screwed, too. Again, according to the CBO, people making roughly $38,000 to $60,000 pay just over 14 percent in federal taxes, so their tax burden jumps as well. The top 1 percent of wage earners, those making over $300,000 per year, now pay an average of 29.5 percent of their income in federal taxes. They would drop to a maximum of 18 percent. Sounds like an unfair shift of tax burden from rich to poor. In reality, rich people will pay even less in taxes. While this goofy plan grabs 9 percent of working folks pay, it taxes capital gains at zero percent, dividends at zero percent(taxing dividends is something of a problem, but that's another discussion), and completely abolishes the estate tax. Guess who pays estate taxes - only people with estates valued at more than $5 million! This plan completely screws poor and middle income people by increasing their taxes, while giving huge breaks to wealthy folks. It's a gigantic tax shift from the wealthy to the poor and middle classes. It's just not fair. 9-9-9 only accelerates the demise of the middle class, and creates greater hardship on those already poor. Still don't see what's so complicated about it. If you can play SimCity, you can figure it out. news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/simcain-herman-cain-9-9-9-plan-resembles-202458219.htmlMaybe Bachman will introduce a plan based on Farmville. |
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TC
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Post by TC on Oct 14, 2011 9:52:13 GMT -5
Maybe Bachman will introduce a plan based on Farmville. No way - you can get free gifts and cash and it allows you to join "co-ops" with your neighbors. Obvious socialism! |
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hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Oct 17, 2011 14:46:49 GMT -5
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Oct 17, 2011 15:53:15 GMT -5
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Oct 18, 2011 13:42:30 GMT -5
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Oct 18, 2011 13:47:58 GMT -5
None of us care about Susan Sarandon, Ed. Better is the fact that Fox News used an unnamed source to state conjecture about the reaction of the crowd -- why would that source need to be anonymous? How would they really gauge what everyone thought of the comment? My high school newspaper had better standards than that article. |
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Post by strummer8526 on Oct 18, 2011 14:32:05 GMT -5
When I go looking for the important political discourse of the day, I immediate turn my attention to the speakers at a weekend Hamptons Film Festival and a Ciroc vodka-sponsored panel. |
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Oct 18, 2011 18:15:19 GMT -5
When I go looking for the important political discourse of the day, I immediate turn my attention to the speakers at a weekend Hamptons Film Festival and a Ciroc vodka-sponsored panel. I seem to recall people picking out a few racist signs at Tea Party rallies and using those to paint all Tea Party members racist. I'm just trying to use a similar method to paint all Democrats as believing the Pope is a Nazi. Of course they both are stupid attempts. |
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TC
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Post by TC on Oct 18, 2011 18:23:08 GMT -5
I seem to recall people picking out a few racist signs at Tea Party rallies and using those to paint all Tea Party members racist. I'm just trying to use a similar method to paint all Democrats as believing the Pope is a Nazi. Of course they both are stupid attempts. So what you're saying is that you're just as bad as Susan Sarandon? |
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Oct 18, 2011 18:24:55 GMT -5
When I go looking for the important political discourse of the day, I immediate turn my attention to the speakers at a weekend Hamptons Film Festival and a Ciroc vodka-sponsored panel. I seem to recall people picking out a few racist signs at Tea Party rallies and using those to paint all Tea Party members racist. I'm just trying to use a similar method to paint all Democrats as believing the Pope is a Nazi. Of course they both are stupid attempts. Ed, that's where you have it wrong. The Tea Party really is racist and those signs from the Tea Party rallies are truly indicative of all members of the movement. The comments of Susan Sarandon, on the other hand, cannot be extrapolated to the Democrat Party. |
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Oct 18, 2011 18:54:56 GMT -5
I seem to recall people picking out a few racist signs at Tea Party rallies and using those to paint all Tea Party members racist. I'm just trying to use a similar method to paint all Democrats as believing the Pope is a Nazi. Of course they both are stupid attempts. So what you're saying is that you're just as bad as Susan Sarandon? Of course I am.  |
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Bando
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Post by Bando on Oct 19, 2011 1:51:40 GMT -5
I seem to recall people picking out a few racist signs at Tea Party rallies and using those to paint all Tea Party members racist. I'm just trying to use a similar method to paint all Democrats as believing the Pope is a Nazi. Of course they both are stupid attempts. Ed, that's where you have it wrong. The Tea Party really is racist and those signs from the Tea Party rallies are truly indicative of all members of the movement. The comments of Susan Sarandon, on the other hand, cannot be extrapolated to the Democrat Party. Dude, stop. It's the Democratic Party. You're just being childish at this point. |
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Post by strummer8526 on Oct 19, 2011 7:52:33 GMT -5
When I go looking for the important political discourse of the day, I immediate turn my attention to the speakers at a weekend Hamptons Film Festival and a Ciroc vodka-sponsored panel. I seem to recall people picking out a few racist signs at Tea Party rallies and using those to paint all Tea Party members racist. I'm just trying to use a similar method to paint all Democrats as believing the Pope is a Nazi. Of course they both are stupid attempts. Oh, well thank you for perpetuating the cycle then. I look forward to the next time one of our left-leaning posters brings up some generalized attack on Republicans based on the words of a small sample population (or in this case, just one random person). And then, when you call them on it, they can reference the Susan Sarandon discussion. And then, the next time you do the same thing, you can reference their post. And the circle of life continues... |
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Oct 19, 2011 9:01:57 GMT -5
Ed, that's where you have it wrong. The Tea Party really is racist and those signs from the Tea Party rallies are truly indicative of all members of the movement. The comments of Susan Sarandon, on the other hand, cannot be extrapolated to the Democrat Party. Dude, stop. It's the Democratic Party. You're just being childish at this point. Of all the things posted on this board, that's what bothers you? Really? Is it more or less childish than a picture of a lesbian loving (hating?) dinosaur? |
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