hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Sept 9, 2008 13:43:49 GMT -5
In all seriousness, I'm not sure that makes any sense -- at least with respect to Tebow. I have no idea if he will be a success at the next level, but to consider him as a "potential" type of QB doesn't make any sense. He has won a National Championship and a Heisman Trophy in his first two college seasons. Even if he comes out after this year, which is highly questionable, he won't exactly be coming out green and get drafted just because of unrealized potential. Now you could use that description of Matt Cassell, who never started a game in college and only threw 33 passes at USC, but had the build of an NFL QB along with the arm strength. To try to knock Tebow just becasue he is big and strong is a bit of a stretch, don't you think?
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vcjack
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Post by vcjack on Sept 9, 2008 14:05:07 GMT -5
In all seriousness, I'm not sure that makes any sense -- at least with respect to Tebow. I have no idea if he will be a success at the next level, but to consider him as a "potential" type of QB doesn't make any sense. He has won a National Championship and a Heisman Trophy in his first two college seasons. Even if he comes out after this year, which is highly questionable, he won't exactly be coming out green and get drafted just because of unrealized potential. Now you could use that description of Matt Cassell, who never started a game in college and only threw 33 passes at USC, but had the build of an NFL QB along with the arm strength. To try to knock Tebow just becasue he is big and strong is a bit of a stretch, don't you think? Perhaps "potential" was the bad phrase, what I really meant to say is "increadibly flawed skill possition players from college powerhouses*" *Exception to the rule, drafting a midget RB high in the draft from Northern Illinois
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FewFAC
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Post by FewFAC on Sept 9, 2008 18:42:10 GMT -5
Oh. My. God. The ESPN coverage is just atrocious. How many desks with an anchorman and three analysts does a network need, because I don't think ESPN has enough. Some initial perceptions: Chargers got what they deserve for never playing LT in the preseason. I get it, and would probably do the same, but the result speaks for itself, every year. Not that Norv realistically has any chance of being better in the crunch than Marty. Watch for Carolina to peak early, a la the Lions. I'll be a believer in Orton, and am almost sold on Forte. But their receiver core blows. And I'm not sold on the defense either, but they'll probably not see an offense as good as Indy's all year, though they'll come up on better receivers. This may also be the year that Mike Brown stays healthy all year, and that will make a huge difference. Still expect the Pats to make the playoffs though. Peak early, a la the Lions? If that performance in Atlanta is an example of peaking early, I don't want to be around when they fold. Yeah, that was a comparison to the Lions of the last couple of years. Carolina looks really thin, and the lack of depth will probably hurt down the stretch run. It's the same issue they have every year, though the upgrade at WR to Mushin Muhammed is indicative of where they are. As for the Lions, letting a BC rookie light you up on his first pro play from scrimmage is basically par for the course. On the one hand, you've got to admire the Fords--hands-off owners who let you do your job and prove yourself, and on the other you've got to wonder how much more time Millen has got.
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FewFAC
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Post by FewFAC on Sept 9, 2008 18:44:13 GMT -5
In all seriousness, I'm not sure that makes any sense -- at least with respect to Tebow. I have no idea if he will be a success at the next level, but to consider him as a "potential" type of QB doesn't make any sense. He has won a National Championship and a Heisman Trophy in his first two college seasons. Even if he comes out after this year, which is highly questionable, he won't exactly be coming out green and get drafted just because of unrealized potential. Now you could use that description of Matt Cassell, who never started a game in college and only threw 33 passes at USC, but had the build of an NFL QB along with the arm strength. To try to knock Tebow just becasue he is big and strong is a bit of a stretch, don't you think? Perhaps "potential" was the bad phrase, what I really meant to say is "increadibly flawed skill possition players from college powerhouses*" *Exception to the rule, drafting a midget RB high in the draft from Northern Illinois Tim Tebow, the DeMarcus Russell of the 2009 NFL Draft. Quick, somebody measure his hand size.
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HoyaFanNY
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Post by HoyaFanNY on Sept 10, 2008 6:17:08 GMT -5
the problem i think tebow, and many other spread QB's will have in the pros is that they are not used to getting the snap under center. in the spread, everything is in shotgun, for the most part. NFL QB coaches will have to work with them on this, where they normally wouldn't have to with a conventional QB. not to mention working on the dropback. footwork is key playing QB in the pros. spread QB's in college don't do 3, 5, or 7 step drops.
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Sept 10, 2008 11:38:18 GMT -5
the problem i think tebow, and many other spread QB's will have in the pros is that they are not used to getting the snap under center. in the spread, everything is in shotgun, for the most part. NFL QB coaches will have to work with them on this, where they normally wouldn't have to with a conventional QB. not to mention working on the dropback. footwork is key playing QB in the pros. spread QB's in college don't do 3, 5, or 7 step drops. That was actually a common criticism of Spurrier and his system. Ironically, it was the 62-24 beatdown at the hands of Nebraska for the National Title in January '06 that finally convinced Spurrier to adopt the shotgun formation to begin with. But then he fell in love with it. In any case, the criticism was that his "system" qb's were used to being in the shotgun and the extra second or so time that it afforded you to look over the defense. His offense was so predicated on spreading the field and then finding the best matchup based on defensive alignment. In a strong sense, that is fundamental to the true spread as it is now, only without any emphasis on the quarterback burning you with the run.
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HealyHoya
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Post by HealyHoya on Sept 10, 2008 12:41:45 GMT -5
Heath Shuler, Danny Weurffel, Doug Johnson, Jesse Palmer, Rex Grossman, Chris Leak, Ingle Martin -- each good-to-great college QB but not exactly a Who's Who of top tier NFL quarterbacks. As the next guy at the position, Tebow gets tagged with that -- fair or unfair.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Sept 10, 2008 13:39:55 GMT -5
Vince Young is a DISGRACE. His lack of toughness--mentally and physically have now alienated him from his teammates. It won't be said in public--but the guy lost the lockeroom long before his antics Sunday--and he deserves every boo, hiss, derogatory comment on his QB play, and is the biggest female body part I've seen.
Admittedly--I never thought he would be a good NFL QB and think it was a stupid pick--but I thought he was tougher then he's shown--and he's proven to be incapable of understanding how PRO--as in PROFESSIONAL athletics work. He talks of "not having fun" and his mommy came out and mentioned how "How would you react when you are getting booed, put down etc..." Well Vince's Mommy--here's how most people would react:
1. They would focus on their job--and try to improve their deficiencies. 2. They wouldn't whine about not having fun when they chose to leave college early to get paid 3. They would realize that NFL is a business and sports is a business built around replacing people in a hurry. 4. If you can't hack it-don't do it. If you get your degree--which Vince can go back to Texas and do--then go do so and enjoy a regular lifestyle-but spare me the "It's awful to hear criticism...." it's part of the job.
A lot of failing in NFL is about who selects you--but in Young's case--he did a nice job his first year--and thought he didn't have to work on his weak points-which as a QB are failing to read a defense and failing to be an accurate passer. He is one of the best college players I've seen--but it's sad to see what a poor work ethic he has-and how he can't take any criticism--even when it's more then valid. The bubble this guy lives in hasn't helped a bit. One thing to realize you aren't that good--another to not care and blame the fans booing instead of accepting that work needs to be done to improve.
As for the Tebow argument above--I'll just say this--Tebow is slower then Vince Young, can't read a defense to save his ass, has never taken a snap from under center, and will be an awful QB in NFL. Nothing wrong with being a great college player and college coaches jobs are to win games--so not criticizing anyone who runs spread--because if it helps your team--that is more important--but watching Tebow get baffled by simple zone defense the other night was disturbing if you were a scout--because he's a JR and he was confused and getting frustrated. UF WR's don't run routes--they run to space--so you will have to teach him timing and how to throw accurately--which you can't do--you either have that or don't. Tebow is a thrower--not a passer and his running ability is negated in NFL--see Young--who has been injured more in his brief NFL career then entire time in HS or college combined. Tebow is more of a "power" runner and that would last about 2 games in NFL before he's knocked into next week. However--he has time--and really should stay another year in college--he's got to work on a lot in regards to his passing ability and improving if he plans on playing QB in NFL.
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Sept 10, 2008 14:36:31 GMT -5
RDF, I wouldn't argue with you on any of those points, but I do think it is a little unfair to "blame" Tebow for his play last Saturday. Miami was 100% content to keep the game close. They were 0% interested in actually winning the game. In that regard they were willing to just sit back there in the loswe 2 deep and just hope Tebow was stupid enough to try something. How much of that overall game was to be credited to Miami, to Tebow and to Meyer/Mullen is uncertain. The game really did remind me much more of our '06-'07 team, which was content to turn things over to the defense and win ugly and close. Obviously the fan in me is more comfortable with a bigger lead. Hell, it was only 6 points going into the 4th quarter. That means you are one fluke away, one busted play, one mistake or one big play by the opponent from trailing. Tebow and the team responded in the 4th quarter with those 2 long td drives, albeit aided by a questionable call on the first one. The point is, I wouldn't argue with your assessment of Tebow's expectations at the next level, but I don't think that Saturday's game was really the one to point to for support. Look more to the Georgia game last year. We couldn't run a lick. He couldn't run a lick. And (maybe because of the shoulder injury) he wasn't on his passing game either. Add to that the inability to stop Moreno and the Georgia offense, and we had a pretty long day.
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kghoya
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Post by kghoya on Sept 10, 2008 16:51:28 GMT -5
maybe tebow can play fullback in the nfl
i imagine he'd be a worse version of the 49ers alex smith...we all know how well that has worked out for san fran
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vcjack
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Post by vcjack on Sept 10, 2008 17:28:34 GMT -5
Vince Young is a DISGRACE. His lack of toughness--mentally and physically have now alienated him from his teammates. It won't be said in public--but the guy lost the lockeroom long before his antics Sunday--and he deserves every boo, hiss, derogatory comment on his QB play, and is the biggest female body part I've seen. Admittedly--I never thought he would be a good NFL QB and think it was a stupid pick--but I thought he was tougher then he's shown--and he's proven to be incapable of understanding how PRO--as in PROFESSIONAL athletics work. He talks of "not having fun" and his mommy came out and mentioned how "How would you react when you are getting booed, put down etc..." Well Vince's Mommy--here's how most people would react: 1. They would focus on their job--and try to improve their deficiencies. 2. They wouldn't whine about not having fun when they chose to leave college early to get paid 3. They would realize that NFL is a business and sports is a business built around replacing people in a hurry. 4. If you can't hack it-don't do it. If you get your degree--which Vince can go back to Texas and do--then go do so and enjoy a regular lifestyle-but spare me the "It's awful to hear criticism...." it's part of the job. A lot of failing in NFL is about who selects you--but in Young's case--he did a nice job his first year--and thought he didn't have to work on his weak points-which as a QB are failing to read a defense and failing to be an accurate passer. He is one of the best college players I've seen--but it's sad to see what a poor work ethic he has-and how he can't take any criticism--even when it's more then valid. The bubble this guy lives in hasn't helped a bit. One thing to realize you aren't that good--another to not care and blame the fans booing instead of accepting that work needs to be done to improve. As for the Tebow argument above--I'll just say this--Tebow is slower then Vince Young, can't read a defense to save his ass, has never taken a snap from under center, and will be an awful QB in NFL. Nothing wrong with being a great college player and college coaches jobs are to win games--so not criticizing anyone who runs spread--because if it helps your team--that is more important--but watching Tebow get baffled by simple zone defense the other night was disturbing if you were a scout--because he's a JR and he was confused and getting frustrated. UF WR's don't run routes--they run to space--so you will have to teach him timing and how to throw accurately--which you can't do--you either have that or don't. Tebow is a thrower--not a passer and his running ability is negated in NFL--see Young--who has been injured more in his brief NFL career then entire time in HS or college combined. Tebow is more of a "power" runner and that would last about 2 games in NFL before he's knocked into next week. However--he has time--and really should stay another year in college--he's got to work on a lot in regards to his passing ability and improving if he plans on playing QB in NFL. Texas has done such a great job of preparing young men to be mature adults once they hit the real world now havent they? But do be fair to VY (and I think he's the worst starting QB in the NFL) the guy did score a 6 on his Wonderlic so you have to assume he's seriously mentally challenged. Suddenly, the Houston front office doesn't look so dumb for passing him up.
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FewFAC
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Post by FewFAC on Sept 10, 2008 18:41:10 GMT -5
I'd always pass on a Mack Brown-coached college football player. VY singlehandedly won Texas a national title they shouldn't have won, and Cedric Benson has superbly represented UT.
Also, Shawne Merriman out for the year should be a blow to the Chargers defense, which will still be pretty good, but once they get the cobwebs off of LT, their offense will outscore practically anyone as long as turnovers are contained to a minimum.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Sept 11, 2008 1:08:17 GMT -5
RDF, I wouldn't argue with you on any of those points, but I do think it is a little unfair to "blame" Tebow for his play last Saturday. Miami was 100% content to keep the game close. They were 0% interested in actually winning the game. In that regard they were willing to just sit back there in the loswe 2 deep and just hope Tebow was stupid enough to try something. How much of that overall game was to be credited to Miami, to Tebow and to Meyer/Mullen is uncertain. The game really did remind me much more of our '06-'07 team, which was content to turn things over to the defense and win ugly and close. Obviously the fan in me is more comfortable with a bigger lead. Hell, it was only 6 points going into the 4th quarter. That means you are one fluke away, one busted play, one mistake or one big play by the opponent from trailing. Tebow and the team responded in the 4th quarter with those 2 long td drives, albeit aided by a questionable call on the first one. The point is, I wouldn't argue with your assessment of Tebow's expectations at the next level, but I don't think that Saturday's game was really the one to point to for support. Look more to the Georgia game last year. We couldn't run a lick. He couldn't run a lick. And (maybe because of the shoulder injury) he wasn't on his passing game either. Add to that the inability to stop Moreno and the Georgia offense, and we had a pretty long day. Quit making excuses for Tebow. The fact is this--the Miami offense was vanilla--their defense was solid--and gave him looks and brought pressure from different areas each play--so they weren't conservative on defense--they were good--and they were dominating the play upfront for 3 quarters--which caused problems. Thing is--Tebow had throws that NFL caliber QB's make easy--and the balls were poorly thrown. Is it that big of a deal for a Florida fan to admit that? BTW--do you realize that most NFL teams run coverage schemes he saw against Miami? If you can't read a defense and specifically figure out what coverages you are seeing-then how does this translate to Tebow being an NFL QB?
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Sept 11, 2008 15:25:33 GMT -5
RDF, you totally misinterpreted my comments. I agree totally that Tebow's NFL expectations are under serious doubt. I thought I was pretty clear on that. All I was saying was that the Miami game wasn't the one to point to as illustration. He pretty much didn't need to do much and didn't do much. My only point is that, at least for that game, the credit/blame goes to the Miami defense and to the overall Florida scheme. It was as if Meyer and company went into the game knowing they should win. Then when Miami made it quite clear that they weren't coming in to win, but rather to keep it close, Florida decided to serve up a rather boring and laborious game. I'm not saying that was the "right" thing to do, and as I said before, from the personal standpoint, I would prefer a stronger offensive gameplan. I do think we will see that in Knoxville. Maybe, Meyer figured that with the game basically in hand, there was no need to show Tennessee anything more than necessary. I don't know. In any case, in no way was I claiming that Tebow has shown himself to be at NFL talent level, nor have I defended him along those regards. The closest I remember is something like having to remember how young he is. He is only 2 games into his 2nd year as a starter, and if may very well be another 25 or so games before he even goes pro.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Sept 11, 2008 23:31:54 GMT -5
RDF, you totally misinterpreted my comments. I agree totally that Tebow's NFL expectations are under serious doubt. I thought I was pretty clear on that. All I was saying was that the Miami game wasn't the one to point to as illustration. He pretty much didn't need to do much and didn't do much. My only point is that, at least for that game, the credit/blame goes to the Miami defense and to the overall Florida scheme. It was as if Meyer and company went into the game knowing they should win. Then when Miami made it quite clear that they weren't coming in to win, but rather to keep it close, Florida decided to serve up a rather boring and laborious game. I'm not saying that was the "right" thing to do, and as I said before, from the personal standpoint, I would prefer a stronger offensive gameplan. I do think we will see that in Knoxville. Maybe, Meyer figured that with the game basically in hand, there was no need to show Tennessee anything more than necessary. I don't know. In any case, in no way was I claiming that Tebow has shown himself to be at NFL talent level, nor have I defended him along those regards. The closest I remember is something like having to remember how young he is. He is only 2 games into his 2nd year as a starter, and if may very well be another 25 or so games before he even goes pro. You are giving coaches way too much credit for "not showing anything". When you are at home--and up by 6 pts deep into the 3rd Quarter--when you are heavily favored--coaches aren't hiding anything. It's about execution--not gimmicks. Florida executed better in 4th Quarter--and look how they scored. They didn't for 3 quarters--and while I agree that Miami wasn't likely to win that game--when Canes had ball and 3rd and 1 near midfield--in 3rd quarter--I highly doubt that Meyer said to himself "We better not show our explosive offense to Tennessee".
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Post by AustinHoya03 on Sept 12, 2008 0:37:37 GMT -5
I'd always pass on a Mack Brown-coached college football player. VY singlehandedly won Texas a national title they shouldn't have won, and Cedric Benson has superbly represented UT. Good call! Those are the only two guys from Texas playing in the NFL! Oops, you forgot to mention Ricky Williams! Please support your claim that Texas should not have won the 2005 National Title. I'll give you my response in advance. UNDEFEATED AND BEAT THE BEST PROGRAM OF THE ERA IN HEAD-TO-HEAD COMPETITION. By the way, I love how this thread has already devolved into 2009 draft discussion. Do they even play games in the NFL anymore? It would not shock me if the Teflon League ceased competition and just let the media talking heads prattle on about training camps, off-field antics, and the shuttle times of college sophomores.
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FewFAC
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Post by FewFAC on Sept 12, 2008 2:24:39 GMT -5
I'd always pass on a Mack Brown-coached college football player. VY singlehandedly won Texas a national title they shouldn't have won, and Cedric Benson has superbly represented UT. Good call! Those are the only two guys from Texas playing in the NFL! Oops, you forgot to mention Ricky Williams! Please support your claim that Texas should not have won the 2005 National Title. I'll give you my response in advance. UNDEFEATED AND BEAT THE BEST PROGRAM OF THE ERA IN HEAD-TO-HEAD COMPETITION. By the way, I love how this thread has already devolved into 2009 draft discussion. Do they even play games in the NFL anymore? It would not shock me if the Teflon League ceased competition and just let the media talking heads prattle on about training camps, off-field antics, and the shuttle times of college sophomores. It's okay. Really. Texas athletic programs are in good hands[/b].
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2008 7:43:27 GMT -5
RDF and hifi - could you please take the Tebow/FU/Miami crap to the college thread?
This week sucks if you're trying to pick head-to-head winners. There are so many teams that are so evenly matched (whether they're both decent or both sh---y), its tough to get a feel for games like San Fran at Seattle or Miami at Arizona.
One thing I am sure of, is Buffalo OVER Jacksonville. I'm obviously biased, but Jacksonville is missing their starting right guard, center and left guard. Which leaves their interior line, flush with backups, to deal with a rotation of Marcus Stroud, Kyle Williams and Spencer Johnson (and likely John McCargo, as well) that devoured a HEALTHY Seahawks line last week and made Matt Hassleback's life miserable.
I mean, c'mon... TUTAN REYES is starting for the Jags! Who, you ask? Exactly. Bills 20-Jags 13.
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kghoya
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Post by kghoya on Sept 12, 2008 8:36:07 GMT -5
RDF and hifi - could you please take the Tebow/FU/Miami crap to the college thread? why bother? hifi turns every thread into a gator thread
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Sept 12, 2008 10:47:10 GMT -5
I'd always pass on a Mack Brown-coached college football player. VY singlehandedly won Texas a national title they shouldn't have won, and Cedric Benson has superbly represented UT. Good call! Those are the only two guys from Texas playing in the NFL! Oops, you forgot to mention Ricky Williams! Amen. BTW, I'm really liking what I'm seeing from Jamal Charles thus far. I didn't realize he was that fast.
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