fatthew
Century (over 100 posts)
Posts: 115
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UFC 86
Jul 9, 2008 19:39:35 GMT -5
Post by fatthew on Jul 9, 2008 19:39:35 GMT -5
A little late on this, but Forrest Griffin beat Quinton "Rampage" Jackson for the Light Heavyweight Title in a very close decision last Saturday. Griffin is the winner of the first season of the Ultimate Fighter, and his fight with Stephan Bonnar at that season's finale is credited by many as the fight that saved the UFC (and MMA in general). Now, he holds the belt in the sport's premier weight class.
In light of Griffin's win, and everything else that has been going on in MMA this summer (CBS and the Kimbo Slice farce, Fedor on American PPV, etc.), I thought it would be a good time to stimulate a little MMA discussion on this board.
Any thoughts on the Griffin-Rampage fight? CBS & Kimbo Slice? MMA in general?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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UFC 86
Jul 9, 2008 21:39:17 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2008 21:39:17 GMT -5
Kimbo (and most of EliteXC in general) = Sideshow. Joke. Disgrace to the sport.
Griffin-Rampage = finally saw it on guy I work with's DVR. Awesome fight. I would have scored it a draw, but can't argue with the decision giving Griffin the belt. That 10-8 round (the second?) killed Rampage, who I think still won at LEAST two if not three of the rounds. Some of those uppercuts/overhand rights CRUSHED Griffin, but his ability to continually take a punch paid off. And that kicking attack... yowza. I thought he was going to break Jackson's shins in half. Incredible.
MMA in General/UFC v. Affliction and EliteXC = UFC is running away with this thing. Affliction is going to put up an interesting fight with the likes of Sylvia and (obviously) Fedor, who many consider the best MMA'er of all time (or so I'm told, I'm somewhat new to this thing), but their fighter roster doesn't look very strong outside of the heavyweights. If they can land Couture, they'll start to have a STRANGLEHOLD on the heavyweight division, but as fatthew indicated, that only goes so far. The light heavyweights and welterweights rule the day (not to mention the increased interest in light and flyweights with the likes of Faber and Penn dominating).
That said, UFC just has the best of everything else. Every weight class (about even on heavyweights with Affliction for now... whether or not Lesnar pans out will be very important for UFC), the alliance/ownership of WEC and their stable of lower weight fighters (specifically Faber), the best promoters (White is an MMA god) and promotions... it will be interesting to see how the free UFC card does against Affliction's debut PPV next Saturday.
As much as people revere Fedor and as well respected as Sylvia is, Anderson Silva might be the best pound-for-pounder right now (COUGH... Faber... COUGH) and could easily outdraw the "best card in MMA history" that Affliction is advertising.
EDIT #1: EliteXC's saving grace - Gina Carano is a fox.
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fatthew
Century (over 100 posts)
Posts: 115
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UFC 86
Jul 9, 2008 22:49:00 GMT -5
Post by fatthew on Jul 9, 2008 22:49:00 GMT -5
When I watched it live, I would have scored it a draw also. I watched it again the next day and I can see where the judges were coming from. Griffin was more active throughout, and he dictated the pace of the fight. Here is the scoring for the fight:
Round 1 Adalaide Byrd: 10-9, Griffin Nelson Hamilton: 10-9, Jackson Roy Silbert: 10-9, Griffin
Round 2 Byrd: 10-8, Griffin Hamilton: 10-8, Griffin Silbert: 10-9, Griffin
Round 3 Byrd: 10-9, Griffin Hamilton: 10-9, Griffin Silbert: 10-9, Griffin
Round 4 Byrd: 10-9, Jackson Hamilton: 10-9, Jackson Silbert: 10-9, Jackson
Round 5 Byrd: 10-9, Jackson Hamilton: 10-9, Griffin Silbert: 10-9, Griffin
Fight Results Byrd: 48-46, Griffin Hamilton: 48-46, Griffin Silbert: 49-46, Griffin
Very close fight. To me, the first round was the most interesting, and probably the most difficult to score. Forrest was winning that round. Until the end, when Rampage crushed him with an uppercut and dropped him. I thought that was enough to give Rampage the round, but two of the judges disagreed. Forrest was able to hang on, get back to his feet, and get through the round. After that, it was pretty much Griffin's fight. Those leg kicks hurt Rampage pretty bad, and I think he was having trouble generating power in his punches later in the fight because of it.
Things are going to get real interesting in the light heavyweight division. Griffin-Rampage II needs to happen. But Griffin-Liddell would be a huge draw, assuming Liddell can get by Rashad Evans. Also in the mix are Lyoto Machida, Wanderlei Silva, Shogun Rua and Thiago Silva (apparently everyone in Brazil is named Silva). And if Anderson Silva wins on July 19 and decides to stay at 205, he'll get a title shot immediately. He could be the first guy in the UFC to hold titles in 2 different weight classes at the same time.
I like what Affliction is doing with the heavyweights. Fedor-Sylvia should be an interesting fight. That said, I'll probably watch the free UFC show on Spike instead of paying for the Affliction PPV. For the most part, the heavyweight division doesn't excite me all that much.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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UFC 86
Jul 10, 2008 8:01:26 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2008 8:01:26 GMT -5
What to do with the UFC light heavyweights:
1) If Liddell defeats Niagara Falls native Rashad Evans (KICK HIS @$$, EVANS!!!), he'll get a shot at Griffin. Right or wrong, that's the fight that will sell. And sell, and sell, and sell. White would be crazy to pass it up.
2) No matter who wins THAT fight, Rampage would get the winner. Liddell-Rampage III or Griffin-Rampage II would be amazing and a monster draw.
3) In the meantime, UFC should throw the Axe Murderer, Machida, Rua and Silva against each other in some sort of round-robin "tournament," the last man standing (my guess? Machida) getting a shot at the winner of the fight I mentioned in #2.
4) All that aside, if Evans beats Liddell, the next fight for Griffin has to be a Rampage rematch. THEN the winner gets the guy coming out of what I described in #3.
5) Anderson Silva is, obviously, the wild card. If he stays at light heavyweight, he gets a shot whenever and wherever he wants, as far as I'm concerned.
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fatthew
Century (over 100 posts)
Posts: 115
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UFC 86
Jul 10, 2008 8:44:37 GMT -5
Post by fatthew on Jul 10, 2008 8:44:37 GMT -5
Its a cool idea, but I don't see the UFC throwing a tournament. Its something they used to do in Pride (If I'm not mistaken, Rampage beat Liddell & then lost to Wandy Silva in the same night). The UFC also did it in its early days. Its tough on the fighters. I also think Dana wants to be in control of the matchmaking.
I think Griffin & Rampage need to fight again before anything else. I'm a big Liddell fan, and I understand the money involved if he fights Griffin, but I don't know about him fighting for the title. I'd like to see Machida get a shot at the winner of Griffin-Rampage II. Or Machida-Liddell with the winner getting a title shot.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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UFC 86
Jul 10, 2008 9:00:18 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2008 9:00:18 GMT -5
So maybe not a true tournament, but have Machida v. Wanderlei at one PPV, Rua v. Silva at another, the winners fight, the winner of THAT gets whomever is the champ at the time (Forrest, Rampage, Liddell, Anderson Silva?).
Machida can be a boring fighter at times, but he's fun to watch as far as I'm concerned. The guy has a plan, executes it, wins (at least from what I've seen of him... which, admittedly, isn't much).
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Hank Scorpio
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
You're gonna die now!
Posts: 573
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UFC 86
Jul 10, 2008 10:13:43 GMT -5
Post by Hank Scorpio on Jul 10, 2008 10:13:43 GMT -5
Chiming in as the man on the inside... I didn't have to work 86, but watching on TV, I had Rampage winning rounds 1 [knockdown did it], 3 [close, benefit of the doubt goes to incumbent], and 4 [all Rampage aside from the failed triangle], and Forrest winning rounds 2 and 5. I did not have a 10-8 for Forrest in Round 2 b/c at no point did he ever come close to finishing the fight or putting Rampage in serious trouble [Sean Sherk does the same thing in every round he has ever won, he doesn't get 10-8s for that]. So, worst case, it should have been a draw for my man 'Page. Instead, somehow, 2 judges gave Forrest round 1, and he won unanimously. How they reached that conclusion is beyond me. Curiously, everyone I know inside the arena had Forrest winning. Everyone that was watching on TV had it scored like I did, though some gave Forrest a 10-8 and had the fight a draw. I don't think Anderson is staying at LHW. I'd imagine he fights Okami and Hendo gets a rematch. His marketability is in his invincibility. I don't think he is invincible at 205. He is at 185. I think this is a one time thing, just to stick it to Affliction. At LHW, I think Rampage deserves a rematch, but Forrest/Chuck in December is probably the move if Chuck beats Rashad. Rampage wants to fight Wanderlei [he wants to avenge all his losses, and Wandy beat him 2x overseas] and I'd imagine he'll get his wish in November or so, and the winner gets winner of Forrest/Chuck. For the record, I think Machida is the best LHW on the planet, but he still needs to beat a Wandy/Shogun type to get a shot at the belt [Tito does not cut it]. And Thiago Silva has got to be in the mix, as well. the LHW division is interesting, there's a ton of very good, but no clear cut #1. [whereas lightweight, welterweight and middleweight all have the best in the world on top right now] - Hank Scorpio PS Rampage reps the Hoyas. farm2.static.flickr.com/1092/1224135966_3201270974.jpg
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hifigator
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,387
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UFC 86
Jul 10, 2008 11:07:11 GMT -5
Post by hifigator on Jul 10, 2008 11:07:11 GMT -5
Where is MCIGuy? I thought he had the inside scoop for UFC.
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hoopsmccan
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,433
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UFC 86
Jul 10, 2008 11:39:55 GMT -5
Post by hoopsmccan on Jul 10, 2008 11:39:55 GMT -5
Thanks for the insight Hank. You touched upon one of my questions -when does a round deserve to be scored 10-8. I have a clear sense in boxing, but wasn't really sure about MMA (like many, I am relatively new to the sport). Griffin was in complete control rd 2, but Rampage was never rocked or in real danger where you thought it might get called. His leg got crushed and it threw him, physically and mentally, for a round. 10-8 round? No idea.
Admittedly, I was rooting for Rampage, but I thought it was a draw at best. The TV vs. arena analysis is interesting...I thought Rogan was talking up Griffin quite a bit during the fight, but maybe the TV audience tunes him out a bit.
hm
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RBHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,143
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UFC 86
Jul 10, 2008 13:54:05 GMT -5
Post by RBHoya on Jul 10, 2008 13:54:05 GMT -5
I thought Rampage won the first, 3rd and 4th rounds as well. The only round that I thought Forrest clearly won was 2, but it never really looked like Rampage was in danger. But it never really seemed like Rampage was in danger of losing.
I don't see Griffin retaining for all that long. You have to give him credit at this point, he has faced some of the best and held his own/won. But I just think several of the other fighters are superior, including Rampage. I really want to see Wanderlei fight for the title, but he's got to win at least one more first. There's so many big matches to be had, Chuck/Forrest, Chuck/Rampage III, Chuck/Wandy II, Wandy/Rampage, Anderson Silva/Anybody. I'm eager to see where they go with it. I'd like to see the winner of Chuck/Rashad fight Forrest next, while Wanderlei takes on Rampage. Say Chuck beats Rashad then it'd be Chuck/Forrest for the title, with the winner of Rampage/Wandy being next in line for a title shot... that way the four possible matches for the LHW title in early 09 would be Forrest/Wandy, Forrest/Rampage II, Chuck/Wandy II, or Chuck/Rampage III... all big money matches.
However I know a lot of people think Machida deserves a shot ASAP and there's a good case to be made there. If they had Griffin/Rampage again later on this year and then had the winner of Chuck/Rashad take on Machida with the winner of that getting a title shot, I'd be ok with that too. In the meanwhile Wandy could fight Thiago Silva. Come to think of it, that might be a more fair scenario. Not sure what to do with Shogun or Anderson though. At least one of them could stand to fight an emerging fighter, ala Matt Hammil from TUF a couple seasons ago, whose only loss was the BS one to Bisping in England. He might be ready for a legit test soon.
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Hank Scorpio
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
You're gonna die now!
Posts: 573
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UFC 86
Jul 10, 2008 14:13:09 GMT -5
Post by Hank Scorpio on Jul 10, 2008 14:13:09 GMT -5
Hoops
There's a lot of ambiguity in the scoring system right now, which is why Saturday's decision was controversial. The only 10-8 rounds I can recall aside from that were the Nate Quarry/Kalib Starnes chase round in Montreal, and Thales Leites vs Pete Sell where he had full mount in the 3rd round for 3 minutes and just rained down strikes until the round ended. Even then, he only got a 10-8 on one card. Those being my standard bearers, I don't think Forrest earned a 10-8, but the lack of clarity on what earns a 10-8 makes it a large gray area.
Purely conjecture, but I think the crowd's backing Forrest may have influenced the judges.
As for Rogan...Put it on mute. Don't listen to the announcers. Painful.
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Hank Scorpio
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
You're gonna die now!
Posts: 573
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UFC 86
Jul 10, 2008 14:17:41 GMT -5
Post by Hank Scorpio on Jul 10, 2008 14:17:41 GMT -5
RB
Hamill will take on Rich Franklin at 205 lbs in September. Winner of that probably gets thrown into that top 8 mix.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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UFC 86
Jul 10, 2008 14:49:44 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2008 14:49:44 GMT -5
Really, Hank? Mute?! He's not Vin Scully or anything, but he's not horrible. At least he knows what he's talking about (such as MMA terms - is there anything in sports cooler sounding than "gogoplata"? - the fighters' histories, technique). I think he's a good combination of "educational" and "entertaining," with a bit more of the latter thrown in.
Personally, I really like Joe Rogan. I'd just as soon listen to someone like Frank Mir (who does a GREAT job with the WEC broadcasts, if you ask me... does a great job describing everything that is going on, educates a bit more than he entertains), but Rogan ain't too shabby.
Of course, I do take him with a grain of salt. When you get down to it, he's just a fan who jumped on the bandwagon early and landed a sweet, sweet gig. Whenever I get a bit annoyed with him, I just think to myself that he's a fan first and that I would kill for his job, and probably be much worse at it.
That, and I imagine him at some after party drinking Patron straight from the bottle before heading to some after hours club and doing lines off a showgirl's thigh... all before waking up in some charge-by-the-hour motel waaaaaaay off the strip at 11 am the next day, surrounded by chicks who look a little too rough for any guy's tastes. How can you not like a guy who gives off that vibe??? Like Tyrone Biggums once said, "There's something you don't know about me, Joe Rogan. I smoke rocks."
Er... no, wrong quote. Like Tyrone Biggums once said, "Oh, Joe Rogan you CRAZY!!!"
EDIT: Curious... what should UFC strive for in building a broadcasting team? I think a Jim Lampley-type would go over well for PBP, but I think they need an entertaining color man who knows his stuff.
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fatthew
Century (over 100 posts)
Posts: 115
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UFC 86
Jul 10, 2008 15:11:30 GMT -5
Post by fatthew on Jul 10, 2008 15:11:30 GMT -5
I actually enjoy Rogan. During the Lytle-Koscheck fight, he described a cut as looking "like a goat's vagina." You really can't top that kind of announcing.
Hank - looks like you were right about Anderson. His manager said today that his next fight will be a title defense against Okami. He also said that Silva's likely not going to make a run at the LHW title, primarily because Silva and Machida are friends and have no interest in fighting each other. He left open the possibility of fighting a Liddell or a Rampage, though. Apparently, Machida will fight again in October, but no word on an opponent.
Its going to be interesting to see how Franklin fits into this picture, assuming he beats Hamill. If I'm not mistaken, his only losses are to Anderson Silva (twice) and Machida. A lot of good fights for him at 205, but I wouldn't mind seeing him take on Henderson.
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RBHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,143
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UFC 86
Jul 10, 2008 16:15:10 GMT -5
Post by RBHoya on Jul 10, 2008 16:15:10 GMT -5
RB Hamill will take on Rich Franklin at 205 lbs in September. Winner of that probably gets thrown into that top 8 mix. Interesting, hadn't heard that. Same card as Chuck/Rashad I assume. Light heavyweight is crazy these days.
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HealyHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Victory!!!
Posts: 1,059
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UFC 86
Jul 14, 2008 12:16:40 GMT -5
Post by HealyHoya on Jul 14, 2008 12:16:40 GMT -5
I watched on TV and thought there was absolutely no way Griffin took Rd2 10-8. The fight should have been a draw. It was simply too even to take the crown away.
Am interested in opinions: should the Koscheck fight have been stopped?
My answer: Yes. I think Dana White and UFC did a disservice to themselves and their fans by not stopping that fight. Way, way too much blood. Koscheck was in complete control. Lytle (sp?) was no threat -- 0 threat -- to win that fight after the blood started. Could barely keep his feet. Wasn't throwing any real punches. It was, in my opinion, a travesty and the manifestation of what MMA opponents believe the sport to be. I love UFC/MMA and was in attendance when Jackson took down Liddell. Big fan and understand the sport...
Interested in those who agree/disagree.
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fatthew
Century (over 100 posts)
Posts: 115
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UFC 86
Jul 14, 2008 14:02:26 GMT -5
Post by fatthew on Jul 14, 2008 14:02:26 GMT -5
I watched on TV and thought there was absolutely no way Griffin took Rd2 10-8. The fight should have been a draw. It was simply too even to take the crown away. Am interested in opinions: should the Koscheck fight have been stopped? My answer: Yes. I think Dana White and UFC did a disservice to themselves and their fans by not stopping that fight. Way, way too much blood. Koscheck was in complete control. Lytle (sp?) was no threat -- 0 threat -- to win that fight after the blood started. Could barely keep his feet. Wasn't throwing any real punches. It was, in my opinion, a travesty and the manifestation of what MMA opponents believe the sport to be. I love UFC/MMA and was in attendance when Jackson took down Liddell. Big fan and understand the sport... Interested in those who agree/disagree. Except that Lytle rocked Koscheck with a few shots at the very end of round three. The reason Lytle wasn't threatening had more to do with Koscheck's wrestling than the cut. I agree that it was a lot of blood, and I think I agree that the fight probably should have been stopped. But I don't really have a problem with the fight not being stopped. I certainly wouldn't call it a travesty. It wasn't any bloodier than the Stevenson-Penn fight or that Edwin Dewees fight on TUF a few seasons ago. The face bleeds a ton. Its part of the game, and I think it would be a disservice to the fighters and the fans to stop the fights too early (I refer you to eliteXC's show on CBS). Lytle is a tough guy, and wanted to continue. And I think the ref should (and did in this case) take that into consideration. Its different if a guy is knocked out, and may have a concussion. In that situation, the ref should err on the side of caution, even if the fight is stopped a little too early. But not for a cut. Also, I would hate to see a situation where fights are getting stopped too soon because of the fear of what the sport's opponents might think. I'd also like to point out that, while Rampage's medical suspension for his leg injury is until early january, Lytle's suspension is only until september (though both can be cleared earlier by a doctor). Both fights raise an interesting question, though. Who do the referees work for? I was under the impression that they are employees of the state commission, and not the UFC. Maybe our UFC insider can shed some more light on that.
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vcjack
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,875
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UFC 86
Jul 16, 2008 9:44:26 GMT -5
Post by vcjack on Jul 16, 2008 9:44:26 GMT -5
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