? for the board experts

[idhoya]

Watchin all these old school games and it got me to thinking:

How good were Fred Brown and Ralph Dalton before the knee injuries?

I started following Hoyas in '82 at age 11, so forgive me for not knowing.

[SirSaxa]

ID, Brown was a HUGE get for JT when he recruited him out of NYC. He may have been the first NYC recruit JT got... first one I can remember. He was BE ROY, he really looked like he had a great career ahead of him.

See the story on him from DFW's history section:

www.hoyabasketball.com/features/top100/f_brown.htm

As good as he was, I don't recall him being in the Duren, Sleepy league. But then, I didn't get to see to many games in those days as we didn't have the TV coverage we do today.

As for Dalton, I'll see if I can find something on him.
I believe he first hurt his knee before he even arrived at GU.
I don't think we ever got to see Ralph at his best.
Maybe someone will remember more.

[SirSaxa]

Ralph Dalton
From HoyaChris' write-up on the 50 best players of the Thompson era.
(which needs to be updated by the way!)

QUOTE

40. Ralph Dalton (83-86) (6-9) (5, 4) - It is probably a good thing that the internet did not exist in the summer of 1981 or it is likely that the Hoya Talk board would have imploded from excitement.

Not only did the Hoyas have the consensus #1 in the class coming in the fall (Patrick) but both Anthony Jones and Bill Martin were consensus top 10 high school recruits. Surprisingly, much of the buzz that summer concerned a fourth (and lesser known) recruit named Ralph Dalton who was big (a legitimate 6-9), mobile, and ripping up the Kenner league. Then the buzz ended as quickly as it started when Ralph incurred a terrible achilles injury that caused him to miss the entire 1981-2 season and play the rest of his career with one foot drooping. His career stats - over 500 points and almost 500 rebounds - don't look that impressive, although it was kind of hard to put up points when you played behind Patrick Ewing for your first three seasons. The numbers are pretty good, however, for a one-legged player.

www.hoyabasketball.com/features/top50_4.htm

[KennaHoya]

First, I don't label myself an expert, but . . .

Ralph Dalton blew out his knee in the Blue Grey game his freshman year. It was a frightening experience - I think it was clear that he was going to be a very, very valuable sidekick to Patrick Ewing - more than just his back-up.

He was a "surprise" recruit, at least to me, but had a lot of talent. He was big and strong - could have developed to make an NBA roster given his size, basketball IQ, and character.

[EasyEd]

JT once said Ralph Dalton would have been a sure 1st round NBA draft pick if he had not injured himself. But I thought his injury was a knee. Am I right or is this a senior moment?

[SirSaxa]

Freddie Brown

More on Freddie from the HoyaChris piece below -- Chris remembers him better than I do:

23. Fred Brown (81-84) (6-5) (1) - I can't imagine what it must be like to have the greatest mistake of your life replayed on TV year after year. Yet Freddie has had to repeatedly relive his errant pass to an out of position James Worthy as that game has taken on added importance over time since the winning basket was scored by "The greatest player the game has ever seen." Ironically, two days earlier he had been the MVP of the national semi verses Louisville, a game that remains, for me, as the most intense defensive basketball game that I had ever witnessed. More ironically, Freddie was probably the best passer to have ever played for the Hoyas.

Tall for a point guard (6-5) Freddie was perfect for a John Thompson system that never placed much of a (any?) premium on point guards who could penetrate and dish. His entry passes were things of beauty, crisp and accurate, delivered to places where the post player could actually do something with them. Had Othella Harrington played with Freddie it might have been worth an additional six points a game to him. He was an excellent ball handler and, with his height, very hard to press. Not much of a shooter (he could hit the open 15 footer - sometimes) he was an exceptional rebounder for a guard and defensively very solid.

Freddie blew out his knee before his junior season and was never the same player. He wore an enormous brace on his knee and it was painful to watch. Competitive to the end, he tried to make up for in chippieness what he had lost in speed - his subtle push-offs under the basket were a thing of beauty, if you like that sort of thing. His embrace of John Thompson after the 1984 national championship victory provided a neat symmetry with the consoling hug that Thompson had provided after the loss to North Carolina two years before.

www.hoyabasketball.com/features/top50_3.htm

[KennaHoya]

Ralph Dalton's injury, by my recollection, was almost certainly a knee injury - he needed to wear a heavy brace for the rest of his career, and never had any real explosion off that leg again. It also hurt his lateral movement and pivoting skills. But he worked his butt off to return to the game, and played a solid back-up role. Based only on seeing him in the Kenner League, his size and strength, and his effort on one leg for most of his career, I do think he was an NBA player.

His knee injury was quite serious - and the surgery for the ligament and knee cap damage he sustained was not then what it is today.

[nodak89]

I remember the pro wrestler style high-high-high tops (HOYAS Nike dunks) he wore for his senior year (my freshman year).

I assumed his infirmity was foot-related, but I don't really know.

[SirSaxa]

I have a vague notion that he had more than one significant injury (Ankle, Knee -- some kind of leg problem(s)).
The big one that HoyaChris refers to before his arrival at GU (OK, maybe at Kenner, but not regular season) and additional knee injuries later? I don't know that. Can't cite any references. But that's my impression.

[FromTheBeginning]

If I remember correctly (things fade when you get old)-----

The achilles injury left Ralph unable to completely flex his foot. The special sneaker refered to above was specially constructed to keep the foot in a position where Ralph could have a fair chance at running.

He was a really "secret" recruit in that the story went that he was participating in some summer leagues under the name of Ralph "Brown" before he came to GU.

Fred would have be a pro if he didn't get hurt. I had the pleasure of watching almost every game he played his senior year in high school and he and Ed Pickney (Villanova) would put on a show.

The success they both have had in life after basketball is what Georgetown basketball is all about.

[HoyaChris]

In my "long-awaited" update of my top 50 Hoyas I had definitive information on Ralph Dalton's injury. It was not an achilles, but rather a badly torn ACL and a badly torn MCL as well as significant nerve damage in the knee that caused him to play with a dropped foot.

[KennaHoya]

Here is a blog from last year by someone who seems to have been there (I was at the Blue Gray game too, but never blogged it).

guhoyas.cstv.com/genrel/102907aab.html

Among other memories the blogger had:

I will never forget the Blue vs. Gray intra-squad scrimmage during Patrick Ewing, Sr.'s freshman year, when another freshman, Ralph Dalton, tore up his knee and was lost for the season. I remain convinced that, absent this injury, Big Ralph would have shattered every rebounding record in the Georgetown record books and been an NBA fixture for more than a decade.

[AvantGuardHoya]

I can't emphasize enough how quick Fred was before his injury. He wasn't much of a shooter, but he more than made up for it with his quickness, ball handling, rebounding and defense. It also hasn't been mentioned that he was BE ROY his freshman season and I firmly believe that if it weren't for his injury we'd have done some damage Pat's sophomore season.

The Dalton injury was truly a shame. Ralph, though, made more than a few significant contributions when he did play. In particular, he gave us important minutes in the '85 East Regional final versus Georgia Tech when Pat got in foul trouble and we managed to go back to the FF.

[lichoya68]

i think i remember that game ralph BROWN AS HE WAS called HIDDEN BEFORE COMING TO THE HILLTOP ... ripped up his knee.. and i think then also injured the nerve to his foot ..which caused foot drop ..and thus the special brace .. and he came back a year to give us a center as a grad stud.. he was great of heart and woulda been a big big star... go hoyas.. go ralph ...and..... freddie before he hurt his knee AGREAT SIX FIVE POINT GUARD GREAT .. oh those were... AND ARE NOW AGAIN the days .. great hoyas... one and all

[idhoya]

Thanx ya'll for all the recaps. I'm a nostalgic guy, so the info is much appreciated.

[RDF]

Ralph's injury to the knees---what a shame. He still contributed and did a helluva job--and who knows how things would've turned out for him if he was injured today--with advancements in knee surgery/recovery--Brandon Rush tears ACL last June and is playing in November.

I've got to admit--watching these flashback games were highlight of the coverage. I did get a great laugh anytime David Dunn came into the Syracuse game--that was pure comedy. Talk about a guy who looked like he'd never practiced with the team--it was basically "get out of the way"--as opposed to David Blue--who hit a nice shot--and was more sure of himself. Granted Dunn was a Frosh--but man was he in over his head.