Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2008 7:54:07 GMT -5
Certainly a first ballot Hall of Famer.
Easily one of the greatest swings in the history of the game.
Excluding guys who were paralyzed or killed or suffered any other catastrophic injury that ended their career (a long list, I know), is it safe to say Griff lost more to injury than any other baseball player in history? Any other athlete ever? I can only think of Mario Lemieux as competition...
If he had Bonds' relatively healthy career, would we be celebrating #700 today? #800 in the near future?!?
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Jack
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Post by Jack on Jun 10, 2008 8:34:08 GMT -5
Certainly a first ballot Hall of Famer. Easily one of the greatest swings in the history of the game. Excluding guys who were paralyzed or killed or suffered any other catastrophic injury that ended their career (a long list, I know), is it safe to say Griff lost more to injury than any other baseball player in history? Any other athlete ever? I can only think of Mario Lemieux as competition... Mickey Mantle is the first name that comes to mind for me- in 1962 he was named MVP at age 30 despite playing only 123 games. He played only 65 games in 1963 and limped through 5 more seasons before retiring at age 36. Also, players who served in WWII and Korea like Ted Williams and Joe Dimaggio (who also had some real injuries issues, as I recall) deserve special mention for missing time and losing out on some counting stats. Also, a few players who suffered career-changing injuries very early in their career but managed to hang around and attempt comebacks for a few years come to mind- who knows what Tony Conigliaro and Bo Jackson would have done.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2008 8:47:58 GMT -5
Mickey Mantle is the first name that comes to mind for me- in 1962 he was named MVP at age 30 despite playing only 123 games. He played only 65 games in 1963 and limped through 5 more seasons before retiring at age 36. Also, players who served in WWII and Korea like Ted Williams and Joe Dimaggio (who also had some real injuries issues, as I recall) deserve special mention for missing time and losing out on some counting stats. Also, a few players who suffered career-changing injuries very early in their career but managed to hang around and attempt comebacks for a few years come to mind- who knows what Tony Conigliaro and Bo Jackson would have done. Excellent examples. The only reason I hold Griffey in a different light is because of the (until recently) hallowed nature of the home run mark. Look at everything that surrounded Bonds as he chased Aaron... and now imagine the hoopla had Griffey (presumptively clean) been in the same race. If the McGwire/Sosa race "saved" baseball, I can only imagine what Griffey's run to the record might have done for the game, especially in the "post"-steroid age.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jun 10, 2008 9:49:12 GMT -5
Everyone I know who saw Mantle feels the same way about him most of us feel about Griffey. The freakish thing about Mantle is that he probably (at one point) was arguably the fastest guy in the league and the guy with the most raw power. Just a complete athlete.
Remember, Ted Williams lost almost five complete years to the war. At the paces he was going at, that was very possibly 170 HRs -- putting him at about 590 HRs. Given that the year he retired, he finished 13th in MVP voting and had an OPS+ of 190, I'm sure he could've kept playing. Not enough to reach Ruth (or fend off Aaron) since he was already 41, but enough to probably have held off at least Sammy Freaking Sosa.
Loved Griffey -- injuries suck.
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Jack
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Post by Jack on Jun 10, 2008 9:53:34 GMT -5
Remember, Ted Williams lost almost five complete years to the war. At the paces he was going at, that was very possibly 170 HRs -- putting him at about 590 HRs. Given that the year he retired, he finished 13th in MVP voting and had an OPS+ of 190, I'm sure he could've kept playing. Not enough to reach Ruth (or fend off Aaron) since he was already 41, but enough to probably have held off at least Sammy Freaking Sosa. I assume that is a typo and you meant close to 690.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jun 10, 2008 10:53:13 GMT -5
Man, my math sucks. Yes, that would have put him at 690 and a good chance to actually catch Ruth before Aaron.
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Jun 10, 2008 12:16:58 GMT -5
If you look at it a different way, something else jumps out. Here we are in the admitted steroid era. As such, virtually every bigtime slugger has had at least some degree of steroid rumors. Right now, I would guess that A-Rod, Griffey and Vlad. have probably been clean all along. I obviously don't know that for sure, but that would be my best guess. In any case, Griffey is probably the one I am the most certain about as being clean. Who knows how much he could have avoided or at least minimized injury issues had he used steroids? That is the supposed "legitimate" use for steroids, and that's to help prevent and then to help recover from injuries.
We always hear the "what if" question about Griffey. "What if" ... he hadn't gotten injured? I think the question could be "what if" Griffey had done what so many others have done and used steroids? He could be up where Bonds is now, or at least in the very near future.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jun 10, 2008 12:43:58 GMT -5
I'm positive Griffey is clean. I assume Vlad is. Rodriguez? I'd like to think so, but he hasn't been free of accusations.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Jun 10, 2008 13:15:33 GMT -5
Griffey also played (and plays) the game with the type of joy that makes him fun to watch. In all the lamenting of what might have been for Junior, you never hear it from him.
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fatthew
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Post by fatthew on Jun 10, 2008 13:27:45 GMT -5
If Griffey stays healthy, you could argue that, instead of this being the "steroids era", steroids would be a minor footnote in the game's history. The media coverage of steroids largely is a reaction to Bonds chasing Ruth & Aaron. But if Griffey stays healthy, there's a possibility he gets to the records before Bonds. At the very least, he'd be right behind Bonds. If Griffey is the guy breaking those records, I think baseball's steroid problem is covered much differently. I don't know that we ever get the Mitchell Report, Congressional hearings, McNamee, etc.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2008 13:47:36 GMT -5
If Griffey stays healthy, you could argue that, instead of this being the "steroids era", steroids would be a minor footnote in the game's history. The media coverage of steroids largely is a reaction to Bonds chasing Ruth & Aaron. But if Griffey stays healthy, there's a possibility he gets to the records before Bonds. At the very least, he'd be right behind Bonds. If Griffey is the guy breaking those records, I think baseball's steroid problem is covered much differently. I don't know that we ever get the Mitchell Report, Congressional hearings, McNamee, etc. Agree 100%. We may still get all of those extras, but the coverage is likely much different. Rather than obsessing over some jerk's (Bonds) pursuit of a hallowed record which many now see as tarnished and not worth the coverage of the backstory ('roids), people would have been going nuts following Griffey's every move month after month after month the way they did McGwire/Sosa.
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FormerHoya
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Post by FormerHoya on Jun 10, 2008 15:03:47 GMT -5
Griffey also played (and plays) the game with the type of joy that makes him fun to watch. In all the lamenting of what might have been for Junior, you never hear it from him. Be very careful, Mr. Madden. We know that Mr. Favre has a restraining order against you...
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ichirohoya
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Post by ichirohoya on Jun 16, 2008 17:23:06 GMT -5
While we're talking about Griffey, I thought this would be appropriate.
Griffey at his finest/most lovable. Even with the way he used to pound the Orioles, Griffey's swing is one of my first very clear memories of watching baseball. Man he was fun to watch.
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ichirohoya
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Post by ichirohoya on Jun 16, 2008 17:28:15 GMT -5
Also, the rumor on PTI this afternoon was that Griffey could soon become a Tampa Bay Ray. That could be cool for 2 reasons: 1) It'd be the first time Tampa has ever made a trade for a veteran before the trading deadline and 2) It'd be great to see Junior get to play in a meaningful game again.
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Nevada Hoya
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Post by Nevada Hoya on Jun 16, 2008 18:37:06 GMT -5
Everyone I know who saw Mantle feels the same way about him most of us feel about Griffey. The freakish thing about Mantle is that he probably (at one point) was arguably the fastest guy in the league and the guy with the most raw power. Just a complete athlete. Yes, he was my favorite player, when I was growing up. So much in fact that when he retired, I lost most of my interest in baseball. Hit a homerun and made a good catch in Don Larsen's perfect game. He was fast, and could have stolen more bases, had not it been for his damaged legs. I don't think he was ever called cerebral, but one of my fondest memories happened in the WS vs the Dodgers (LA version). Koufax was dominating that series and the game (series?) would have been over had not Mickey avoided a double play, when he was on first and the potential double play got the batter at first, voiding the automatic force at second, so he just ran back to first. It was one of the most heads-up plays that I ever saw, especially in a critical situation like that.
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