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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Apr 30, 2008 17:13:22 GMT -5
I mean personally I don't agree that all exits that aren't the main one should be emergency exits. I think it would be an unnecessary hassle. I mean if you just make all the doors locked and have to be opened via gocard and give every gocard acess to the doors then no one will need to prop them over and only georgetown students will get in. ( yes i realize there's a chance someone will just follow some goergetown students through the door, but for the part you can tell who is and is not a student and you shouldn't be holding the door open for some sketchy looking stranger who's been hanging around outside.)
despite the recent peak in sexual assaults I still contend that georgetown is a very safe place and I don't feel remotely threatened.
I agree arm dops, get them better pay, get better night guards and hold them accountable, I don't think much more has to be done. lets be honest most of this isn't the criminal found a back door into the building it's he walked right past a sleepy security guard.
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afirth
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Post by afirth on Apr 30, 2008 17:36:00 GMT -5
despite the recent peak in sexual assaults I still contend that georgetown is a very safe place and I don't feel remotely threatened. HSB, do you think the fact that you don't feel "remotely threatened" is because you're a guy? I don't want to say that girls are the only ones who feel threatened on this campus - the various hate crimes and fights that occur show that male students receive their fair share of abuse and harassment. However, I don't know too many guys who are scared to walk home alone late at night - and I know plenty of girls who are. Also, most sexual assaults are against girls. I've been harassed walking home late at night on numerous occasions - including on campus - and I've even been stalked/followed the entire way home. While I'm not going to say that male students never get harassed, I think it's fair to say that there's a significant difference in how safe female students feel vs. male students.
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Apr 30, 2008 17:53:57 GMT -5
Of course that's a major factor in it. but that doesn't mean georgetown isn't really safe compared to a lot of areas in major cities. There a lot of places I wouldn't feel safe walking around late at night on my own. I would walk around anacostia on my own at 1 in the morning. Georgetown sure. Obviously girls are the victims of sexual assault like 99% of the time as for the being followed home and harassed in the manner you're talking about, well that's just why it's always a good idea to have a guy walk you home if it's late at night especially on weekends when there are drunk people out.
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Post by redskins12820 on Apr 30, 2008 18:27:18 GMT -5
I agree with the proposal to put alarms on every non-main entrance. Put an alarm, you won't have the problem of people propping open doors for their friends
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Apr 30, 2008 21:17:47 GMT -5
Interesting stuff. A few things:
1. Alarms break. At Georgetown when I was there, the issue was that an obscene number of blue light phones didn't work. Alarming doors may be a good idea, but the alarms have to work. See also HSB's comment about it being a hassle, which is probably going to be the opinion of the GU community once the assault gets forgotten.
2. Are the comments about GW and Howard really merited? GW and Howard are both in more trafficked areas of campus. Both also have an access issue where dorms are on major thoroughfares. Even though LXR is on the GU perimeter, there's still not that much up there - even that one block seems to discourage a lot of foot traffic.
This gets to a subsidiary question. Security gets very expensive very quickly. Even more importantly, it becomes a big hassle very quickly. What level of hassle is the GU community willing to put up with for what reduction in crime?
3. Be aware that the chance for sexual assault remains from Georgetown students. In the past, GU students have been charged and convicted of nasty things. It's part of why I think that the proposal to essentially "lock down" a campus to only students, faculty and staff is wrong because it assumes that the students, faculty, and staff will never commit crimes. There's a lower probability (sense of community, the probability that the perpetrator will be recognized), but it never drops to zero.
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Post by JohnJacquesLayup on May 1, 2008 6:23:50 GMT -5
A question to 98, RH, and others. If the premise is that campus security is broken, how should it be fixed? Pass out three to five recommendations that you would make. And I don't want "fire everybody in the chain of command". Should more officers patrol to make sure doors aren't propped open? More security cameras? 1. Arm DPS. They are Special Police Officers of the Metropolitan Police Department and hold police commissions signed by the Mayor of the city. They should be equipped as such (this will also require them to become better trained and will hopefully spur them to be more proactive in pursuing criminals, knowing that they can protect themselves if need be). I don't think so. What makes them "special" is that they can't be trusted with firearms.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on May 1, 2008 8:20:10 GMT -5
1. Arm DPS. They are Special Police Officers of the Metropolitan Police Department and hold police commissions signed by the Mayor of the city. They should be equipped as such (this will also require them to become better trained and will hopefully spur them to be more proactive in pursuing criminals, knowing that they can protect themselves if need be). I don't think so. What makes them "special" is that they can't be trusted with firearms. That is the old joke, of course, but there's nothing preventing Special Police from having firearms. What makes them "special" in terms of designation is that they get their paycheck from The President & Directors of Georgetown, rather than the District of Columbia. GW's police are also "Special Police" (http://gwired.gwu.edu/upd/Welcome/WelcomefromtheChiefofPolice/) They are armed. Likewise, at Howard, "All Campus Police Officers are either armed Special Police Officers or unarmed Security Officers. They have been commissioned, or licensed, by the Washington, D.C. Metropolitan Police Department, Security Officers Management Branch, and operate under their guidelines and local and Federal Laws."
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Post by strummer8526 on May 1, 2008 10:46:23 GMT -5
I still think that cameras could be huge. It would hopefully deter students from propping doors (not their own doors but main access point doors). It would ideally be used absolutely to fire DPS officers who fall asleep / do nothing. And I do think that w/ the number of cars involved in crimes around campus, you could get license plates. You can get pictures of people. We don't even know at this point if there's one person who has committed 5-10 crimes on campus. I feel like we need to know the problem before we can address the solution, and cameras would allow everyone to see what's actually happening.
Of course, Olson would turn them into party-busting devices, which would be an enormous waste.
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afirth
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Post by afirth on May 1, 2008 19:17:41 GMT -5
Email sent out by GUSA today:
"Dear Georgetown,
It is clear, now more than ever, that a "business as usual" approach to campus safety is failing to meet the needs of our community. While the Department of Public Safety (DPS) has taken immediate action to respond to recent incidents that have occurred on campus, permanent improvements are needed. A new Director of Public Safety will be chosen in the upcoming weeks, and GUSA is taking the lead to ensure that student concerns regarding campus safety receive the proper attention that they deserve. It is with this goal in mind that we ask you to take the following action:
1. Join our Facebook group, "GUSA Campus Safety Watch." This group is designed to serve as a forum for public discussion of campus safety issues. It is also meant to send a message to our administrators that campus security is an issue of major concern to our student body. The more people that join, the stronger that message will be…SO JOIN IT NOW! 2. Email your recommendations on how to improve campus safety to georgetownsafety@gmail.com. Please include your class year, gender, and place of residence in the email (off-campus residents please indicate your intersection; on-campus residents please indicate your residence hall.) We guarantee that these concerns will be presented to the new Director of DPS when he or she takes office.
In this administration, we think it is important that students have a strong say in how their security needs are met. We want you to know that the GUSA staff will be here over the summer working with DPS to find appropriate ways to improve campus security in the future. Thank you for taking the time to help us respond to these matters of pressing concern.
Yours Truly, Pat Dowd GUSA President James Kelly GUSA Vice-President Jackson Holahan GUSA Secretary for Student Safety"
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sead43
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Post by sead43 on May 1, 2008 23:53:55 GMT -5
and one from Rocky (it doesn't seem to be directly related to the LXR events, but it's nonetheless related to the administration's campus safety efforts):
Dear Students,
As you prepare for finals, I want to take this opportunity to remind you of your safe travel options on and around campus. All of these services are provided free of charge and I encourage you to use them now and in the future. Please remember that throughout exam and senior weeks, as well as year round, DPS Walking Escorts are available 24 hours/day by contacting DPS at (202) 687-4343. These escorts are limited to campus and the immediate surrounding blocks.
The Burleith and West Georgetown Shuttles will run as usual on Thurs – Sat from 10:00p – 3:00a. Their last run will be Saturday, May 17.
The stand-by van that provides escort service Thurs-Sat from 8:00p - 3:00a will run weeknight service Sun - Wed from 8:00p – 2:00a during Senior Week.
The DPS SafeRides escort service will be available, as usual, during exam and senior weeks Sun – Wed, 8:00p – 2:00a and Thurs – Sat until 3:00a. The Alpha Phi Omega (APO) Van will run hourly from Lauinger steps Sun-Thurs, 10p-2a, through exam week. GUTS buses will run as usual. You may visit the OTM website (http://otm.georgetown.edu/guts/) for schedule details. For information about The Shuttles and the SafeRides services, call 202-784-7433 (RIDE).
I wish you all a successful exam period and a safe and enjoyable summer.
Sincerely,
Rocco DelMonaco, Jr. Vice President, University Safety
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Post by HometownHoya on May 2, 2008 0:30:15 GMT -5
As far as LXR goes directly, they currently have the place on lock down. If your door isn't locked they give you a citation. Even in the middle of the day when you are sitting in your room. Even in the middle of the day when there are 5 guys playing video games. I understand the security concerns about letting people INTO the building, but its impossible to get IN now unless you can swipe in, so why do we need to lock our doors in the middle of the day!? Most of my friends and I agree, in a dorm, the entire building is like your house, DOPS should protect the doors to the outside, not the doors to the halls. (Oh and they locked the bathrooms too, but thats not too bad) I just think that it should be every person's individual right to keep their OWN door locked or unlocked, I'm not too afraid of someone coming into my room, but if they are, they should just lock their door. I guess the only way to explain this thinking is that the University thinks that it may have been a resident. Which the incident of someone crawling on the floor and crawling into bed with some girl while whispering "Gabby" may have been. I could see some really drunk guy doing that, and combined with the events of the night before have made DOPS more strict now after the fact.
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on May 2, 2008 6:56:53 GMT -5
As far as LXR goes directly, they currently have the place on lock down. If your door isn't locked they give you a citation. Even in the middle of the day when you are sitting in your room. Even in the middle of the day when there are 5 guys playing video games. I understand the security concerns about letting people INTO the building, but its impossible to get IN now unless you can swipe in, so why do we need to lock our doors in the middle of the day!? Most of my friends and I agree, in a dorm, the entire building is like your house, DOPS should protect the doors to the outside, not the doors to the halls. (Oh and they locked the bathrooms too, but thats not too bad) I just think that it should be every person's individual right to keep their OWN door locked or unlocked, I'm not too afraid of someone coming into my room, but if they are, they should just lock their door. I guess the only way to explain this thinking is that the University thinks that it may have been a resident. Which the incident of someone crawling on the floor and crawling into bed with some girl while whispering "Gabby" may have been. I could see some really drunk guy doing that, and combined with the events of the night before have made DOPS more strict now after the fact. Like I said earlier, this is the GU overreaction. It's extra security, but it's a hassle. What level of hassle are students willing to put up with to achieve what level of security?
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rosslynhoya
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Post by rosslynhoya on May 2, 2008 9:12:32 GMT -5
As far as LXR goes directly, they currently have the place on lock down. If your door isn't locked they give you a citation. Even in the middle of the day when you are sitting in your room. Even in the middle of the day when there are 5 guys playing video games. I understand the security concerns about letting people INTO the building, but its impossible to get IN now unless you can swipe in, so why do we need to lock our doors in the middle of the day!? Most of my friends and I agree, in a dorm, the entire building is like your house, DOPS should protect the doors to the outside, not the doors to the halls. (Oh and they locked the bathrooms too, but thats not too bad) I just think that it should be every person's individual right to keep their OWN door locked or unlocked, I'm not too afraid of someone coming into my room, but if they are, they should just lock their door. I guess the only way to explain this thinking is that the University thinks that it may have been a resident. Which the incident of someone crawling on the floor and crawling into bed with some girl while whispering "Gabby" may have been. I could see some really drunk guy doing that, and combined with the events of the night before have made DOPS more strict now after the fact. Like I said earlier, this is the GU overreaction. It's extra security, but it's a hassle. What level of hassle are students willing to put up with to achieve what level of security? Georgetown can't do a damned thing to protect its students from scary outsiders with guns, but it can sure make it look like it's taking security seriously through meaningless measures that annoy and inconvenience them. This mentality is precisely why Congress created the TSA.
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Post by redskins12820 on May 2, 2008 9:25:07 GMT -5
Like I said earlier, this is the GU overreaction. It's extra security, but it's a hassle. What level of hassle are students willing to put up with to achieve what level of security? Georgetown can't do a damned thing to protect its students from scary outsiders with guns, but it can sure make it look like it's taking security seriously through meaningless measures that annoy and inconvenience them. This mentality is precisely why Congress created the TSA. The real analogy between TSA and DPS is that they are both reactive and have no foresight to be able to prevent an attack the likes of which they have never seen before (e.g. takes VT tragedy to institute emergency text message program)
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Post by hoyachick on May 2, 2008 10:38:34 GMT -5
I don't think locking one's door is an unreasonable security measure. Granted, it's been a long while since I graduated, but other than having our doors open and unlocked in our cluster in Harbin when other "cluster-mates" were home, I think we always locked our doors. If I was alone - morning, noon or night, my door was locked. It's not a new issue. In New South, many moons ago, there was someone who would try the doors to see if they were locked at night. The University is absolutely responsible for restricting access to the buildings, but no system is going to be 100% effective, so I don't think it's unreasonable for people to lock their doors. After all, it is situated in major metropolitan area. Heck, I live NYC, and even though I live in a doorman building (marginally more effective than Gtown security), my door is always locked. I bring my laundry downstairs? I lock my door. I bring my garbage down the hall? I lock my door.
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Post by AustinHoya03 on May 2, 2008 10:48:09 GMT -5
Georgetown can't do a damned thing to protect its students from scary outsiders with guns, but it can sure make it look like it's taking security seriously through meaningless measures that annoy and inconvenience them. This mentality is precisely why Congress created the TSA. Anne Applebaum (who is one of the best columnists at the WaPo, IMO) wrote a really good piece on the cost/effectivness of airport security a couple of years ago. www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/14/AR2005061401346.html[/threadjack]
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Post by Coast2CoastHoya on May 2, 2008 11:40:32 GMT -5
Georgetown can't do a damned thing to protect its students from scary outsiders with guns, but it can sure make it look like it's taking security seriously through meaningless measures that annoy and inconvenience them. This mentality is precisely why Congress created the TSA. The real analogy between TSA and DPS is that they are both reactive and have no foresight to be able to prevent an attack the likes of which they have never seen before (e.g. takes VT tragedy to institute emergency text message program) So how many more "oops" moments will it take TSA/DPS/Congress to take meaningful, appropriate action? Part of the issue, of course, is time, money, and staffing -- most entities (govrnment, educational, and otherwise) simply don't have enough to be proactive. Part of the problem there is the ubiquity of "distraction devices" like Blackberries and cell phones that allow instant gratification of the distracting party (often at the expense of thoughtful, deliberate, diligent performance of duties), part of the problem is the increasingly expensive and complex nature of doing anything, and part of the problem is public and stakeholder expectations for any endeavor (see the blogosphere for evidence and examples). Another solution: mandatory self-defense training for all students, extra for "at risk" classifications (such as women, smaller people, etc). You can't be a victim if you kick your attacker's ass (like this dude from VMI who was visiting my roommate: some guy tried to mug him on Prospect, he kicked the guy's butt) or make him believe you will. Obivously, that won't solve crimes involving guns (since few people in their right minds will try to fight someone with a gun) but could be very helpful for incidents that don't involve deadly weapons. Also, studies show that people who appear strong and capable of putting up a fight are less likely to be victimized.
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Post by strummer8526 on May 2, 2008 13:52:11 GMT -5
I really don't think this analogy is working. Securing an airport with dozens of entry-points, hundreds of employees, and massive square footage from amorphous threats is VERY DIFFERENT from locking the Editeding doors to a building. We're not talking about stopping all crime period or stopping unpredictable attacks. But keeping non-students out of dorm buildings at 3am should be a lot simpler than securing an airport.
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rosslynhoya
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Post by rosslynhoya on May 2, 2008 14:47:32 GMT -5
Georgetown can't do a damned thing to protect its students from scary outsiders with guns, but it can sure make it look like it's taking security seriously through meaningless measures that annoy and inconvenience them. This mentality is precisely why Congress created the TSA. Anne Applebaum (who is one of the best columnists at the WaPo, IMO) wrote a really good piece on the cost/effectivness of airport security a couple of years ago. www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/14/AR2005061401346.html[/threadjack] That's not a threadjack at all. Applebaum's article raises precisely the question that theexorcist keeps asking us all to answer here: how much security (and what kind) do we want and how much are we willing to tradeoff for it? Georgetown students, American citizens, you name it, care more about feeling safe than being safe and we will spare no expense to achieve the former. You want to be safe, you do the expensive work to keep the perimeter secure, you use doors that lock and card readers that work, you dispatch foot patrols in and around campus, you profile threats and prioritize resources against those. It's SIMPLE. Making students sign in other Georgetown students, fining students for leaving their dormroom doors unlocked in the middle of the day while they're in the room, sending students text messages to let you know there's been a campus security incident, those are the equivalent of making every airline passenger take off their shoes to "prove" they're not shoe bombers. On the bright side, it makes jobs. Correct me if I'm wrong, but we now have a Vice President for University Safety and a Director of Public Safety? Is that just so one can blame the other when there's a breakdown? Attention Georgetown: your campus is now on Code Orange alert. Take all necessary precautions
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on May 2, 2008 15:34:08 GMT -5
I really don't think this analogy is working. Securing an airport with dozens of entry-points, hundreds of employees, and massive square footage from amorphous threats is VERY DIFFERENT from locking the Editeding doors to a building. We're not talking about stopping all crime period or stopping unpredictable attacks. But keeping non-students out of dorm buildings at 3am should be a lot simpler than securing an airport. Not really. Both involve threat analysis. Here, you're just limitng the problem to a very small subset - crimes from people without GoCards. And at least one person has already complained about it (hey, if my room was the furthest from the door, I'd complain, too). The other problem with this approach is that it's not going to render Georgetown 100% safe. Some person could still shoot the DPS guard at the single entrance, for example. "But it reduces the risk!" Yes, but how many assaults occurred this year before this one? What about last year? If it reduces the risk further, should you arm the guard and put him behind bulletproof glass? What if a nonstudent steals a GoCard? Should you require a fingerprint scan? Or an eye scan? I'm intentionally making this absurd. Part of the reason is that this is the same question that's being discussed in nondescript office buildings that have burly guards with guns - at what point do legitimate "living your life" concerns interfere with security? The Secret Service hated that DCA reopened (and probably would love to have everybody land far aware from any population centers). Immediately after the London air bombings plot got found out, no one was allowed to have any carryons on the first few flights. The airlines howled. Duty-free shops complained that people weren't buying perfume that would just get confiscated before you boarded. You would be safer if no one was allowed to carry anything on board an aircraft. Are you OK with that? I've been to Israel a few times, where the popular consensus is that the threat is so real that it's worth flying on dingy aircraft that have securely-locked pilot doors and enduring personal questions during check-in, profiling, and long wait times. If you want a fun research topic, do a "threat matrix" for Georgetown (or some other organization) - ask yourself about every single kind of public safety incident, from stealing an iPod to a Virginia Tech-style attack to a catastrophic event. Then make some recommendations on how Georgetown should address each, keeping in mind the probability of the incident, the seriousness of it, and the cost (both financial and otherwise) of the proposed solutions.
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