AL vs. NL Argument Thread

[Gold Hoya]

Ideally, the moderators can move the offending posts from our Cubs moaning thread into here, where you guys are welcome to pick up the discussion. I'm not going to worry much about the AL (except for interleague play) until my team can get out of its side of the bracket.

[Elvado]

The American League is far superior if you prefer softball games and managers who don't have to manage.

[Jack]

The argument wasn't about style, it's about who wins in games between the two leagues. Which is a short argument, but for some reason one person pursued it.

And I much prefer "managers who don't have to manage" over "managers who choose to give up outs." Though I am sure we will all be telling our grandchildren about the majestic double switch we once saw Clint Hurdle execute.

[SDHoya]

I can say this much unequivocally:

On balance, the AL teams are better than the Padres.

[TBird41]

I'm with Jack. I really want to see Dusty Baker, Willie Randolph and Tony LaRussa make lots of over thought (but still stupid) decisions. That makes for great baseball.

[FormerHoya]

Umm, Dusty doesn't make decisions. He galactically sucks without doing anything. He'd be masterful in the AL.

Also, you know what'd be better than actually playing baseball? If both teams just sent their best hitters up and saw who could hit more homeruns. That'd be sweet. No worrying about pitchers hitting or bad defensive players then, either.

[Elvado]

If oversimplification were an Olympic sport, several posters here would be gold medalists. When you're down 2-1, bottom of the seventh, with a great pitcher on the mound in the AL, no worries. In real baseball you might have to hit for him.

Baseball consists of nine man (at a time) teams, not ten.

Case closed.

[Jack]

Apr 24, 2008 14:57:09 GMT -5 Elvado said:

If oversimplification were an Olympic sport, several posters here would be gold medalists. When you're down 2-1, bottom of the seventh, with a great pitcher on the mound in the AL, no worries. In real baseball you might have to hit for him.

Instead, we get to see a real hitter attempt to tie the game AND still get to see the great pitcher come back to face more real hitters. AL fans are really missing out.

[FormerHoya]

Apr 24, 2008 15:05:00 GMT -5 Jack said:

Apr 24, 2008 14:57:09 GMT -5 Elvado said:

If oversimplification were an Olympic sport, several posters here would be gold medalists. When you're down 2-1, bottom of the seventh, with a great pitcher on the mound in the AL, no worries. In real baseball you might have to hit for him.

Instead, we get to see a real hitter attempt to tie the game AND still get to see the great pitcher come back to face more real hitters. AL fans are really missing out.

Why stop there? Why not just have your best five hitters hit, and your best 8 fielders (and one pitcher, your best, obviously) field. That's all you really need. Also, if one of the hitters gets anything less than a homerun (I don't know why he would, but as long as we're playing silly hypotheticals...) he can be run for by your fastest man. He wouldn't have to come out after this, but you know how sometimes your best hitters aren't your best runners? Well, this way, you get your best doing their best all the time!

Arguments for the DH sound terrible when they get followed down to their logical conclusion.

Don't dare debate my logic. Airtight, airtight, I tell you!

[SFHoya99]

Much prefer the NL.

The AL is better right now in terms of talent.

[Gold Hoya]

Apr 24, 2008 15:11:51 GMT -5 FormerHoya said:

Why stop there? Why not just have your best five hitters hit, and your best 8 fielders (and one pitcher, your best, obviously) field. That's all you really need. Also, if one of the hitters gets anything less than a homerun (I don't know why he would, but as long as we're playing silly hypotheticals...) he can be run for by your fastest man. He wouldn't have to come out after this, but you know how sometimes your best hitters aren't your best runners? Well, this way, you get your best doing their best all the time!

Arguments for the DH sound terrible when they get followed down to their logical conclusion.

Don't dare debate my logic. Airtight, airtight, I tell you!

Under such rules, the Brewers would still find a way to carry 14 pitchers on a 25-man roster.

[AustinHoya03]

Apr 24, 2008 15:05:00 GMT -5 Jack said:

we get to see a real hitter attempt to tie the game

The DH for the Rangers this afternoon was Jason Botts. He is not what I would call a "real hitter."

The designated hitter is great if you've got a guy like David Ortiz. However, those of us who follow teams outside of New England often see a veteran who would otherwise be washed up or a guy who is just getting a day in the lineup in the DH slot. Here were your DHs in the AL yesterday:

Texas: Milton Bradley/Frank Catalanotto
Detroit: Miguel Cabrera
Los Angeles: Garrett Anderson
Boston: Ortiz
Toronto: Robinzon Diaz
Tampa: Johnny Gomes
New York: Hideki Matsui
Chicago: Jim Thome
Minnesota: Craig Monroe
Oakland: Mike Sweeney
Baltimore: Aubrey Huff
Seattle: Jose Vidro

Kansas City and Cleveland got rained out, but their DHs on Tuesday were Billy Butler and Pronk Hafner, respectively.

[Jack]

Still haven't seen anyone argue that NL has superior talent or that NL teams are anything but sacrifical lambs to the AL come October. Forget overall interleague play, in the original form of interleague play, the Fall Classic, the AL is 16-8 over the past 5 years, and the 2006 Tigers should be ashamed of losing to that Cardinals team.

As for the legitimacy of the DH, I can imagine people getting worked up over it 35 years ago, but its time for so-called purists to get over it. Yes, most DHs are not skilled fielders, but baseball has become a more specialized game and the DH is just one part of that trend. Pitchers don't make the big leagues because of their hitting ability, position players do. You may be willing to take a tradeoff and play an exceptional defensive player at C, SS, or CF who only gets on base 25% of the time, but most of the time you will try to upgrade that bat and perhaps sacrifice some defense. No one has ever sought to upgrade their pitchers' hitting at the expense of their ability to get outs.

Pitchers are unique, and I don't mind a bit that we recognize the difference and allow them to focus on pitching while having someone who is in the league for that skill to take his at bats. I don't miss the bunts, or the pinch hitting decisions, or the baserunners wearing jackets, or the double switches. I do enjoy seeing Ortiz, Youkilis, Lowell, and Ramirez (or Thome and Konerko, or Garko and Hafner) all in the same lineup, and without the DH I don't get that chance.

[FormerHoya]

The DH was created at a time when there was not enough scoring in baseball. The opposite problem is true today. Since the DH was created as a remedy to a percieved problem, now that the problem is remedied, let's make it go away. Otherwise, let's change baseball to my suggestions above.

I know that there's no chance that this will happen, I just like to remind the AL that despite the arguments that it is a "superior" league, it should recognize its gimmicky nature.

[DFW HOYA]

For all the Cub fans' moaning, consider the plight of the Texas Rangers, the oldest franchise in professional sports to have never won a championship (47 years, including their stint in Washington). Heck, they've never won a pennant...or even a divisional series...or even a home playoff game.

True to form, the Rangers have lost 12 of 14, and it's not yet May.

[Deleted]

There's a difference between having better teams and having more talent. I'd take Santana, Peavy, Webb, maybe Hamels, and maybe Haren over any starter in the AL. On the offensive side, you've got guys like Reyes, Wright, Utley, Ramirez, D. Lee who are as good as anyone in the AL as well.

I think the talent in the AL is clustered on about 4-5 teams - it's more spread out in the NL. Makes for stronger teams at the top of the AL, but the talent gap isn't outrageous.

EDIT: More evidence of the talent being spread thinner in the NL: 10 different NL teams have made the playoffs in the past 3 years. 10 different AL teams have made the playoffs in the past 7 years.

[hifigator]

I'm with elvado on this one. Call me a baseball purist if you wish, but I think that the DH doesn't help the nature, spirit or fundamental integrety of the game. It most likely puts more butts in the seats, since people tend to prefer higher scoring contests. But I do think it significantly cheapens the game. While I wouldn't argue that some managers over think decisions, I still think that late inning player management is a part of the game that should be required. The DH effectively cuts that down to next to nothing.

"Am I going to pinch hit for my starter in the 7th innning even though he is still going strong, because we are tied or losing?"

"Am I going to walk this guy, to get to their pitcher, knowing that will force their hand and make them either remove their pitcher that we can't seem to hit, or are they going to essentially conceded this inning?"

"Should I bring in my ace closer now and try to get two innings out of him, knowing that they will counter with their 2 big bats on the bench, or should I try to piecemeal this inning and then have my closer ready to go in the ninth throught the heart of their order?"


and then another often forgotten aspect of the game:

"Do I really want to throw up under this guys chin now, since I have to get in the box in the bottom half of the inning?"

Angles such as these merely disappear with the DH.

I will admit that the best teams are in the AL right now, but that doesn't say anything about the quality of the game itself.

[dajuan]

umpbump.com/press/where-are-all-the-american-league-stars/

[nodak89]

Are there any fans of NL teams in favor of the DH?
Any fans of AL teams that prefer no DH?

Personally, I think the DH rule is nearly evil.

Specialization is one thing, but using the DH is like bringing in your closer to pitch in the 2nd, 4th, 6th and 9th innings.

That ain't right.

[SFHoya99]

I think the "strategy" argument is mostly bunk -- double switches are not rocket science.

However, I do think everyone who bats should have to play in the field, and everyone who plays in the field should have to bat. I'm not a fan of uber-specialization (kickers and punters, anyone?) and especially not in a sport that is not exactly physically demanding.

Pitchers that can hit give themselves a huge advantage; an elite hitter that can field should be rewarded over one that can't.