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Post by strummer8526 on Apr 10, 2008 9:08:08 GMT -5
So now, there really is absolutely NO difference b/t these and the Save Second Base shirts. This better shut up all the obnoxious conflictmongers on campus. "Obnoxious conflictmongers"? Really? This, from a school that had massive protests and outcry at the beginning of the year over rules restricting beer pong??? Say what you will about the manner and method of conveying the message (and there is plenty to say), but the original comment and criticism on the shirt's content and subtext is absolutely valid assuming the proceeds were not originally going to charity. Lizzie--any idea on whether that was that the plan all along or is that a new thing designed to diffuse some of the criticism? Just because there is a SHRED of truth or legitimacy to an opinion doesn't mean campus needs to hear it. 4 opinions in the Hoya, protests, GUGS having to meet with representatives from RANDOM groups--it's all BULL. And the drinking issue impacted more than 80% of that campus and what they consider an enjoyable social life. It was not a nonsense complaint based on over-sensitivity to a joke. You're comparing apples and carrots. Tell me how these shirts would DIRECTLY impact a single student, male or female, beyond their "feelings"? |
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hoyatables
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by hoyatables on Apr 10, 2008 10:19:42 GMT -5
"Obnoxious conflictmongers"? Really? This, from a school that had massive protests and outcry at the beginning of the year over rules restricting beer pong??? Say what you will about the manner and method of conveying the message (and there is plenty to say), but the original comment and criticism on the shirt's content and subtext is absolutely valid assuming the proceeds were not originally going to charity. Lizzie--any idea on whether that was that the plan all along or is that a new thing designed to diffuse some of the criticism? Just because there is a SHRED of truth or legitimacy to an opinion doesn't mean campus needs to hear it. 4 opinions in the Hoya, protests, GUGS having to meet with representatives from RANDOM groups--it's all BULL. And the drinking issue impacted more than 80% of that campus and what they consider an enjoyable social life. It was not a nonsense complaint based on over-sensitivity to a joke. You're comparing apples and carrots. Tell me how these shirts would DIRECTLY impact a single student, male or female, beyond their "feelings"? Reinforces stereotypes that a woman's breast size defines her worth. Also reinforces stereotypes that a woman's sexuality defines her worth. I'd say that is a pretty direct impact. And it's a direct impact on both women and men. Look, I agree that the reaction was overzealous, but there is a valid criticism and point here, and it seems like many of you want to ignore that. The entire point here is that to some women (and some men) this is not just "a joke." It is a statement that reinforces stereotypes about women and men, and in their minds it is something that is offensive. And what drives the parties crazy -- what leads to the overreaction, in my opinion -- is that the first response is always "well, it is just a joke" without an acknowledgement of their point of view. Again, I don't personally give two *&*^ about this -- I'm eight years removed from the Hilltop, and I am a boob man though I don't find the joke particularly funny. But the folks who are commenting on this do have a valid substantive point that is getting lost in the (justifiable) annoyance over the process. EDIT: I did think your "comparing apples and carrots" was a clever turn of phrase  . |
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Post by williambraskyiii on Apr 10, 2008 10:43:15 GMT -5
Just because there is a SHRED of truth or legitimacy to an opinion doesn't mean campus needs to hear it. 4 opinions in the Hoya, protests, GUGS having to meet with representatives from RANDOM groups--it's all BULL. And the drinking issue impacted more than 80% of that campus and what they consider an enjoyable social life. It was not a nonsense complaint based on over-sensitivity to a joke. You're comparing apples and carrots. Tell me how these shirts would DIRECTLY impact a single student, male or female, beyond their "feelings"? Reinforces stereotypes that a woman's breast size defines her worth. Also reinforces stereotypes that a woman's sexuality defines her worth. I'd say that is a pretty direct impact. And it's a direct impact on both women and men. That's a stereotype?  I always thought it was an unassailable truth. |
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hoyaboy1
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,346
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Post by hoyaboy1 on Apr 10, 2008 12:14:07 GMT -5
Reinforces stereotypes that a woman's breast size defines her worth. Also reinforces stereotypes that a woman's sexuality defines her worth. Yea . . . I don't get this from the slogan at all. Perhaps if you are looking for this kind of stuff, you see it everywhere. This was already gone over on the first page, but using a breast size measure to say the burgers are big because it also uses letters, like the system used to measure meat quality, does not equal anything you said above. |
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Post by lightbulbbandit on Apr 10, 2008 12:14:23 GMT -5
Reinforces stereotypes that a woman's breast size defines her worth. Also reinforces stereotypes that a woman's sexuality defines her worth. I'd say that is a pretty direct impact. And it's a direct impact on both women and men. That's a stereotype? I always thought it was an unassailable truth. Congratulations, I put the odds at 2 to 1 that your statement will appear in the next round of editorials in The Hoya as evidence of the latent patriarchal sexism at Georgetown. |
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The Stig
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Post by The Stig on Apr 10, 2008 12:41:14 GMT -5
Reinforces stereotypes that a woman's breast size defines her worth. Also reinforces stereotypes that a woman's sexuality defines her worth. Yea . . . I don't get this from the slogan at all. Perhaps if you are looking for this kind of stuff, you see it everywhere. This was already gone over on the first page, but using a breast size measure to say the burgers are big because it also uses letters, like the system used to measure meat quality, does not equal anything you said above. Yeah, I thought the slogan reinforces the stereotype that a burger's meat quality and size define it's worth. |
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hoyatables
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by hoyatables on Apr 10, 2008 13:24:59 GMT -5
Reinforces stereotypes that a woman's breast size defines her worth. Also reinforces stereotypes that a woman's sexuality defines her worth. Yea . . . I don't get this from the slogan at all. Perhaps if you are looking for this kind of stuff, you see it everywhere. This was already gone over on the first page, but using a breast size measure to say the burgers are big because it also uses letters, like the system used to measure meat quality, does not equal anything you said above. It's not just that both systems use letters. You're right that we went over this, but I didn't think your logic was right then and I don't think it is right now. I think reasonable minds can disagree on whether the logical inference that some want to draw can be drawn. In fact, the whole joke rests upon drawing the inference that you'll like GUGS burgers because they're big, just like you like breasts when they're big. I don't think it is all that hard to accept that the statement could be viewed as offensive, regardless of whether you think the level of offense is de minimus, mitigated or offset by the fact that it is humor, or is out of proportion with the intensity of the reaction. |
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hoyatables
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by hoyatables on Apr 10, 2008 13:28:49 GMT -5
That's a stereotype? I always thought it was an unassailable truth. Congratulations, I put the odds at 2 to 1 that your statement will appear in the next round of editorials in The Hoya as evidence of the latent patriarchal sexism at Georgetown. Heh. You know, of course, that illustrates a great point. Brasky's statement is, of course, funny in context even if it is offensive on its face. Just like many of you are arguing that the shirts are funny in context even if they are offensive when taken at face value. There really is a reasonable discussion to be had here, even if it is lost amid the question over the intensity of the reaction. And, of course, picking and choosing your battles. |
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Post by lightbulbbandit on Apr 10, 2008 14:08:27 GMT -5
Congratulations, I put the odds at 2 to 1 that your statement will appear in the next round of editorials in The Hoya as evidence of the latent patriarchal sexism at Georgetown. Heh. You know, of course, that illustrates a great point. Brasky's statement is, of course, funny in context even if it is offensive on its face. Just like many of you are arguing that the shirts are funny in context even if they are offensive when taken at face value. There really is a reasonable discussion to be had here, even if it is lost amid the question over the intensity of the reaction. And, of course, picking and choosing your battles. The statement was funny because it was on its face completely absurd. If a person makes a statement like that in a public setting with a grin on their face people laugh because the context reveals that the person was making fun of the position. If a person makes that same statement in a speech about the role of women in society people stare with their jaws dropped that somebody would make such a statement. The statements would be identical but one would elicit laughs while the other would elicit condemnation. The reason is context. People are smart enough to get the existence of it. A person who really though women should be subjugated to the kitchen would have taken offense to Braskyiii's joke because it would be mocking their seriously held position. When people try to pull things out of context and claim that they are offensive on their face they are serving to do one thing: draw attention to a greater issue. If people want to talk about sexism, go for it. But don't hijack something which in context is not part of the problem, by taking it out of context. All things exist in context, taking them out of context to fit your argument is tantamount to lying. |
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hoyatables
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by hoyatables on Apr 10, 2008 14:41:05 GMT -5
Heh. You know, of course, that illustrates a great point. Brasky's statement is, of course, funny in context even if it is offensive on its face. Just like many of you are arguing that the shirts are funny in context even if they are offensive when taken at face value. There really is a reasonable discussion to be had here, even if it is lost amid the question over the intensity of the reaction. And, of course, picking and choosing your battles. The statement was funny because it was on its face completely absurd. If a person makes a statement like that in a public setting with a grin on their face people laugh because the context reveals that the person was making fun of the position. If a person makes that same statement in a speech about the role of women in society people stare with their jaws dropped that somebody would make such a statement. The statements would be identical but one would elicit laughs while the other would elicit condemnation. The reason is context. People are smart enough to get the existence of it. A person who really though women should be subjugated to the kitchen would have taken offense to Braskyiii's joke because it would be mocking their seriously held position. When people try to pull things out of context and claim that they are offensive on their face they are serving to do one thing: draw attention to a greater issue. If people want to talk about sexism, go for it. But don't hijack something which in context is not part of the problem, by taking it out of context. All things exist in context, taking them out of context to fit your argument is tantamount to lying. Well, at the very least, it is intellectually dishonest. The question here, however, is whether you can reasonably expect your average person viewing the t-shirt to get the joke. I haven't seen the t-shirt, so I know nothing about it other than its slogan. Whether the shirt itself provides enough context is a question worth asking. If the shirt shows a big burger or "Georgetown University Grilling Society" on it then yeah, the joke is clear. If there isn't context on the shirt . . . then maybe it is a tougher call, particularly if the University's name appears on it. And it was my understanding from the beginning that a reason for the objection was not just from the shirt itself, but also the University's implicit sponsorship through the Student Association or Student Activities or something? Or was that just to the title of the week-long event? On EDIT: to clarify -- I'm referring to the average non-university person viewing the shirt. |
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Apr 10, 2008 14:57:43 GMT -5
The "context"? Are we deconstructing shirts now?
I feverishly await this board in seven months, when the new pregame video is deployed and is determined to include latent references to post-Dadaist surrealism.
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hoyaboy1
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Post by hoyaboy1 on Apr 10, 2008 15:03:41 GMT -5
It's not just that both systems use letters. You're right that we went over this, but I didn't think your logic was right then and I don't think it is right now. I think reasonable minds can disagree on whether the logical inference that some want to draw can be drawn. In fact, the whole joke rests upon drawing the inference that you'll like GUGS burgers because they're big, just like you like breasts when they're big. The latter doesn't at all logically follow. I can't think of a good slogan for this right now, but say meat quality was graded 1-4, 1 being the best. The shirt then said "Grade 1, Waist Size 40." Would this then be saying you'll like GUGS burgers because they are big, just like you like waists when they are big? Even arguing about this ridiculous topic gives too much credit to the issue, but I find it absurd to say that you aren't making a leap based on the assumed intentions/attitudes of the shirt makers when you assign a sexist meaning to the slogan. It clearly isn't inherent, unless men mentioning the measuring system for cups is always wrong. |
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Filo
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Post by Filo on Apr 10, 2008 15:37:40 GMT -5
I would have to say that 'tables is bending over backwards to find legitimacy in the overly-sensitive response.
If forcing political correctness on everyone is like a drug to certain crowds, he is an enabler.
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hoyatables
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Post by hoyatables on Apr 10, 2008 15:44:30 GMT -5
Exorcist -- it may not necessarily be an important discussion, but it is an interesting one. And I'm a former American Studies major and a current lawyer -- context and overanalysis is fun.
Hoyaboy -- I just can't see this the way you are seeing it. I can't divorce the idea that it is a mere system of measurement from the connotation of sexuality/gender roles implicit in a direct reference to a woman's cup size. I can absolutely understand any argument that accepts that the connotation exists, but that here there is no harm because of the humor, or it is de minimus, etc. What I can't understand -- and probably what frustrates the feminists and other organizations -- is a statement that it is absurb to even suggest that the connotation exists.
And I absolutely agree with everyone that whether there is any validity or not, this is definitely NOT the case where I would want to make my public case about gender roles in American society. It's a really bad example. I'm just saying, the women have a point underneath all of the BS.
How many more months until the season starts again? We need a facilities discussion, stat!
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Post by Coast2CoastHoya on Apr 11, 2008 9:56:02 GMT -5
Is GUGS pronounced "guhgs" or "jugs"? |
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DrumsGoBang
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Post by DrumsGoBang on Apr 11, 2008 10:25:55 GMT -5
I like boobs.
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moe09
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Post by moe09 on Apr 11, 2008 12:27:16 GMT -5
Coast2Coast, it's funny you mention that. I'd say take a wild guess.
OK.. it's jugs.
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hoyatables
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by hoyatables on Apr 11, 2008 12:35:30 GMT -5
I would have to say that 'tables is bending over backwards to find legitimacy in the overly-sensitive response. If forcing political correctness on everyone is like a drug to certain crowds, he is an enabler. I'm not so sure that I'm the one on the side of people in denial here . . . . |
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afirth
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Post by afirth on Apr 11, 2008 15:27:59 GMT -5
Breast Cancer Outreach and the Women's Center were tabling next to GUGS today in Red Square. Seems like everyone has kissed and made up.
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Post by strummer8526 on Apr 11, 2008 15:38:37 GMT -5
Breast Cancer Outreach and the Women's Center were tabling next to GUGS today in Red Square. Seems like everyone has kissed and made up. I wonder if GUGS got some action out of it. |
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I always thought it was an unassailable truth. 
