Georgetown "system"

[SFHoya99]

(1) Florida's power forward (? Al Thorton) not dominant?!?! Corey Brewer not take someone one-on-one?

First of all, it was Al Horford. Neither Horford nor Brewer are or were elite offensive players. Offensively, they aren't much different than Jeff and Roy, frankly in terms of overall offensive effectiveness, and as a combo Jeff and Roy are more skilled, IMO.

Furthermore, neither ever forced the issue. Florida was great because they had great players playing together. If Corey Brewer -- who frankly even Florida fans questioned his handle and one on one skills -- had tried to put up 30 every night, there's no way they win the title.

(2) Team ball is best but when your under 2 mintues and down at the end of a game I would prefer to have the option of one-on-one basketball then a back door cut.

I prefer to have the option of both, you know, kinda like our system set up versus Vanderbilt.

(3) Jordan? How many times with the game on the line did he get the ball? Bulls vs. Cavaliers....Bulls vs. Jazz.....check the ESPN introduction to SportsCenter each night....it was a one man show

First of all, the Bulls weren't a one man show. Second of all, Jordan took a lot of shots, and yes, some were pure isolation, but most of the time he took them in the offense. Jordan was great, but it's no coincidence that that team succeeded when they surrounded him with players who could hit open shots and he started passing to them.

More importantly, you're actually arguing my point. It's not the system; it's the personnel. If we had Michael Jordan don't you think our offense would reflect that more? We don't. Trying to make one of our players into a guy who shoots 20 times per game would be disastrous.

5 players who play as a team and don't have that go-to-guy are at a disadvantage compared to 5 players who play as a team and also have that one player to go to in crunch time.......GU is currently the latter.

So your point was that the system is somehow holding the team back. My point was that if we don't have a go-to guy (and I don't know if I agree), it's personnel, not system.

You seem to be agreeing with me here.

Hoya fans need to be more realistic of what we have and what we are deficient in.

What we have is an offense that has been a Top 10 offense for the last three years. It's performed at high levels against great defenses often and not so high levels once or twice. I'd love to have an NBA All-Star playing at an elite level offensively on the team, but it is hardly a prerequisite for a title.

[GUHoya07]

Jan 11, 2008 14:43:48 GMT -5 TBird41 said:

Jan 11, 2008 14:36:45 GMT -5 AltoSaxa said:

RDF...too much to process....quantity doesnt replace quality...will tune in when I have an hour.

Right now GU doesn't have any one player who I feel extremely confident in with the game on the line....period. As for "new" to the board....doesn't deserve a response. Thanks.

When you have an hour, you'll probably find out that RDF just destroyed your "argument" with a quantity of quality (why does that phrase sound like something Vitale would say?)

Exactly, RDF's post was very high quality, and clearly ruined his argument.

Also, if you need an hour to read that it probably explains a lot about why your logic is so stupid.

[SFHoya99]

Jan 11, 2008 14:09:10 GMT -5 AltoSaxa said:

I never said we can make it to the Final Four but not win it all.....

You asked the question in your first post. What do you think?

I am making the point that we have a higher likelihood of winning it all if we had one guy in the clutch. Rose or Summers? Hansborough or Freeman? 30 seconds down lets try to run a backdoor and hope no one cuts off the passing lane.

When we had this situation last year, the system ran a play that incorporated:

1) a cut to the hoop
2) the ability to go one on one (or two)
3) open shooters well spaced

Again, your original commentary attacked our team ball. If you don't think we have a late game replacement for Jeff, that's one thing. But your post -- title "system" in quotes -- isn't talking about personnel or doesn't seem to do so. I think that's why people are disagreeing with you.

I think there will be quite a few people who think that we don't have a guy who can isolate and score. It's a not a team strength compared to other elites. But we have some other things going for us.

[vcjack]

I had a suspicion that Garry Parrish lurked around here but didn't realize that he went and registered. Hi Garry!

[hoopsmccan]

Jan 11, 2008 14:48:00 GMT -5 GUHoya07 said:

Jan 11, 2008 14:43:48 GMT -5 TBird41 said:

When you have an hour, you'll probably find out that RDF just destroyed your "argument" with a quantity of quality (why does that phrase sound like something Vitale would say?)

Exactly, RDF's post was very high quality, and clearly ruined his argument.

Also, if you need an hour to read that it probably explains a lot about why your logic is so stupid.

A rare smackdown by 2007. Nice.

[RDF]

The difference is what some view making a great player is not correct. Great players dominate games when they are not scoring--they still impact the game. Scorers do one thing and shoot their teams out of games when they are not scoring.

If game is close--and Hoyas need a Hoop--and Roy Hibbert is manned up in post--I want him to have the ball--the guy shoots damn near 70% and closer to the hoop--is a better shot. If he's doubled/tripled or team is zoning Hoyas--then I'd prefer he get in rebounding position or be used as passer.

The best play in basketball is hitting the open man--and by no coincedence the teams who do that--and make the cliche "extra pass"--win. Here's a list of players who were key in each Final Four since 1982-and then think back as to whether they were "Star" on their team:

1982- Jordan hits shot-Worthy was best player-but Jordan got shot in the often criticized Dean Smith "system" of team play.

1983--Lorenzo Charles hitting game winner off a terrible last possession where team held ball and got a 26 foot fallaway to come up short.

1984--Reggie Williams/Michael Graham were as important as anyone--and at the time Reggie was a Frosh as was Michael.

1985--Harold Jensen--nothing else to say--too painful

1986--Pervis Ellison and Jeff Hall of Louisville

1987--Keith Smart-when Hoosiers had Steve Alford as best offensive player

1988--Danny Manning was dominant--carried his team--but Chris Piper, Milt Newton, and cast of good/not great players stepped up

1989--Rumeal Robinson was hero--Glen Rice best player.

1990--Vegas rolls due to being best TEAM. Anderson Hunt was MVP but was he better then Larry Johnson?

1991--All the talk of Laettner and Hurley--some of the biggest shots were made by Greg Koubek in Semifinal game and Billy McCaffery.

1992--Duke Repeats--and gets big performance in Semis from Thomas Hill against Indiana

1993--Donald Williams was huge for Carolina--and while he was their best shooter--that team had Lynch, Montross, Phelps, and Chris Webber calling timeout.

1994--Arkansas rolls with Scotty Thurman leading way--Corliss Williamson and cast of great talent were a great TEAM--but Clint McDaniel, and company helped a great deal.

1995--Tyus Edney shot to beat Missouri, Toby Bailey stars at Final Four and Ed O'Bannon was star of that team.

1996--Loaded Kentucky team gets great play from Tony Delk, Anthony Epps, and it had Antione Walker, Walter McCarty, Ron Mercer, Jared Prickett, Nazr Mohammed, etc.....

1997--Arizona--Miles Simon--on a team who had Gilbert Arenas, Mike Bibby, and a JC forward Bennett Davidson (spelling? on last name) had huge tournament.

1998--Kentucky gets enormous tournament from Mohammed and Jeff Sheppard--rallies from 18-19 to beat Duke in Regional Final and Scott Padgett had a great tournament as well.

1999--UConn has big game from Ricky Moore and team had Rip Hamilton and Khalid El Amin. Albert Mouring was huge as well.

2000--Michigan State gets contributions from Antonio Smith and Andre Hutson in Final Four to allow Morris Peterson and Mateen Cleaves to get the title.

2001-As good as Battier and Jason Williams were--Nate James and at the time lesser known Carlos Boozer were keys to them cutting nets down. Boozer leads comeback over Terps in Semis.

2002--For all the talk of Juan Dixon/Lonnie Baxter, Chris Wilcox, Tahj Holden, Drew Nicholas, and Steve Blake were just as important-if not more in Regional Final win over UConn and Final Four. Open up with 2 games in DC and NC was actually won when they beat UConn in East Regional Final and Indiana knocks off Duke in Sweet 16 game.

2003--Cuse and Melo--yeah--but McNamara comes out and busts 7 3's in first half of Title game and Hakim Warrick makes key play. Key players in Cuse's run to title? Jeremy McNeil who was better then he was rest of his career in NCAA's and Josh Pace and Billy Edelin. Cuse plays in Boston/Albany on way to Final Four and worst games they played were in Albany--crowd helps carry them.

2004--UConn--Okafor was tremendous as was Ben Gordon but without Rashad Anderson--they go home against Duke in Semis. Charlie Villanueva played his best ball at UConn in NCAA's as well. Denham Brown had been in slump and got out of it in NCAA's with best game in months against Duke.

2005--UNC--Felton, May, McCants--and with those names--it was Marvin Williams who got the big shot to win game. They also get the break against Nova in Sweet 16 to advance.

2006 and 2007--Noah, Horford, Brewer, Humphrey, Green, Richard, it was a team effort for 12 straight NCAA games and team was only challenged 4 times with competitive games--Hoyas in '06, Purdue, Butler, and Oregon in '07. Each game had different hero.

So you see--did those teams rely on one guy to take big shots? Did they have systems where talented people made sacrifices to help TEAM accomplish goals? You can beat one guy--you can beat teams with 2 guys--but it's hard to beat teams who have various people who can rise to occasion.

[hifigator]

Again, I think the key is having players that are confident with the ball in their hands in the last minute. Like I said, every team would like to have a Jordan or a Kobe or an Iverson, that is a true playmaker and has the ability to get off and knock down his shot when everyone in the arena knows that is what he is trying to do. That isn't reasonable, but it does give us all something to appreciate when we get to experience it first hand. That being said, the key is to have a "team." That very same concept that worked for the first 39 minutes of the game is probably a good starting strategy to consider with the game on the line. But we must understand that there are good nights and bad nights for everyone. Having 5 guys on the floor running the play to get the ball in the right position is the most important part. Given that the team is working to get the desired shot, the play is far more likely to be effective in general than going straight iso. The bottom line is that you can always run an isolation at the very end, if the called play doesn't result in the open shot you wanted. But I don't think it is much of an advantage to have the isolation as your main/only option. Again, for the past two years, we would typically run a high screen and roll with the ball starting in Taurean Green's hands. If no one stopped the ball, he would take it to the rack. If the rotated help came from the wing then hopefully Lee Humphrey had an open look. Meanwhile the screen setter -- usually Horford -- would roll to the basket. If the underneath defenders stepped out to stop Green, a simple bouce pass or lob to Horford was often an option. If none of that worked, then Horford would typically back screen for Noah who would pop out to the elbow area, while Brewer would rotate to the top. If none of that worked, the ball would go to Brewer and if there was time, we would start it all over. If not, then we had the ball in our slashing player's hands in Brewer, who had excellent body control and was adept at getting into the lane on a drive in traffic, yet avoiding the charge. It isn't really rocket science, but I think it worked out pretty good. I'll take that over one guy trying to break a player down on the dribble, knowing that at least a second defender was ready to contest the one option that I wanted with the ball.

[Deleted]

It's only January 11, but I think hoya9397 has locked up the "Most Inauspicious Hoyatalk Debut of 2008" award.

Good stuff, all.

[blueandgray]

Jan 11, 2008 12:50:33 GMT -5 AltoSaxa said:

New to the board.....double Hoya from Mourning through Othella...There has been a lot of discussion about Hibbert's recent play. Last night many saw our #1 Monroe play. I think there is a common theme. We have talented players but yet to have that one player with the proverbial "killer instinct." We have not had a dominant player come to GU in a long time. I would consider Iverson or Mourning our last. So many have commented on recent players "intangible qualities," "basketball IQ" and how they will fit into the GU "system". Can we win it all, though, without that one player who demands the ball and makes it happen.....a guard who creates off the dribble or a center who demands the ball in the post and scores the goal?
I appreciate the "brand" of basketball GU plays and the players who play. This being said, I fee that without a dominant player it will be difficult to win it all. Our current system makes it very difficult to come from behind and we have no one player who, when the game is on the line, make us feel over 90% confident that he will score. UNC plays the team concept well just like GU. The difference, however, is that they have several options to go to that are not dependent on team play but individual skill. Yes UNC lost to us in the regional.....I was there...we didn't win that game as much as they lost that game.
The frustrations with Hibbert's games and the recent comments about Monroe's performance last night are more directed to the concept of a "go-to-guy." I think everyone expects a consensus #1 prep player to be such a guy (or for that fact, a 1st team preseason all-American).......a la Derrick Rose or Michael Beasley.
"Team" basketball wins games and it is elegant. That's why so many bb fans favor college hoops over the 1-on-1 game in the NBA . Can we win though without having a little of the latter? Maybe some of our frustration are due to this void.

So we haven't had a dominant player with killer instinct since Mourning or Iverson. Fine, but I'd take the players we have and the brand of team ball any day versus a team led by a dominant player. Its proven that the system is more important than the players.

Two years ago we beat #1 Duke without even a 1st team all Big East player on our team. We are the last team to have beaten NC... a team full of stars. And yes, we beat them. I've watched the last 10 minutes of that game at least 20 times and our D was unbelieveable. We also broke them down on O for a layup or a dunk on almost every possession. And then... there was the dagger from our walk-on guard.

Where did Iverson's team go? I beleive he went as far as Zo's did. I'd argue that Iverson was surrounded by as much our more talent than the Hoyas had last year (Iverson, page, Aw, Williams, Harrington, White). In the end... its how the players fit in the system.

Is it nice to have someone who can create their own shot?... of course. But I would rather have a well rounded player who can shoot, pass, rebound and defend in our system 7 days a week and twice on sunday!!

[strummer8526]

I feel like hoya9397 must be hoafoeva's cousin or something. I LOVE ellipses, and I probably use them too often. But good god, man. Try a semicolon, comma, maybe even a period sometime.

I guess we sort of have to respect someone who comes on and immediately tells us that we "didn't win" the UNC game--arguably the most meaningful game we've played in a decade. It's too bad the argument is patently absurd...and wrong...and obnoxious.

Finally, to discuss the talent on our team: I'd rather have 5-7 serious threats/weapons coming down the stretch in a game than to have 1-3. With :10 on the clock, Hansbrough is going to get doubled teamed on any inbounds. Who do you double on us? We'll have 5 people on the floor that can kill a team. And all year, we practice utilizing those players to get the best look at the time.

Remember--the end of the Vandy game (during which Jeff DID NOT travel), the play was drawn up for Ewing. The same Ewing who I would say is our 5th or 6th scoring option, at best. The fact that Jeff had that ball and hit that shot wasn't intended. This year, I'd be happy w/ Jon, Austin, Roy, Dajuan, and Jesse/Chris at the close of a game, and I'd be comfortable with any one of them looking to run a play or taking it on their own.

[Hoya TMF]

I've been on Roy as much as anyone, but if we are down two with 30 seconds left and Roy does not touch the ball, I am screaming bloody murder. Roy makes everything we do happen. I'll take Roy in the post against anyone because you always have to respect height. Roy certainly has lacked aggression all season, but I think it's safe to put the ball in his hands in the final minute. Roy is a good enough passer that he can hit Jon for the game winner or Austin down the lane or drop step or hook for the game tying basket.

Everyone has said this before, but it's too early. We haven't been in a close game yet. We wondered allowed about who could take over a game at this point last season. Jeff Green stepped to the plate. Time will tell who that person is on this team.

[AltoSaxa]

The intensity and passion is palpable. It seems that a discussion regarding the necessity of an end-of-game go-to-guy has been tangential....multiple tangents, actually. Right now the Hoyas are talented and are playing well together. At the end of the game I would be more assured if we had one guy in whom I felt confident could make the score solely with individual skills. Undoubtedly scores come from ball movement, player movement (with and without the ball), back-door cuts, screens etc. I would still like there to be a candidate with one-on-one skills. Right now, in my opinion, the Hoyas have many candidates but none for me stands out. There has been criticism of Hibbert's post play and rightfully so. Wallace and Freeman make 3s with great accuracy but a drive to the basket and potential foul may yield a higher chance of points with 30 seconds left and Freeman is a freshman, albeit mature beyond his years. Summers, offensively, has been inconsistent. Sapp may be the best option if the dribble/drive is the intention. Everyone can disagree but the opinion remains. As for the insults....come on...represent yourselves in the tradition of the institution. HoyaBoy1....thank you for your post....personally it gave me the most insight. Not necessarily a top 5 player but the mentality of getting to the rim.....to me Sapp, of all, possesses this most. I still think the dribble-drive is invaluable in crunch time when you need a quick 2. Enjoy.

[njcoach]

Jan 11, 2008 13:47:15 GMT -5 AltoSaxa said:

You missed the point

(1) Florida's power forward (? Al Thorton) not dominant?!?! Corey Brewer not take someone one-on-one?
(2) Team ball is best but when your under 2 mintues and down at the end of a game I would prefer to have the option of one-on-one basketball then a back door cut.
(3) Jordan? How many times with the game on the line did he get the ball? Bulls vs. Cavaliers....Bulls vs. Jazz.....check the ESPN introduction to SportsCenter each night....it was a one man show
(4) Macklin was an excellent HS player.... college? not the system just an overrated player

5 players who play as a team and don't have that go-to-guy are at a disadvantage compared to 5 players who play as a team and also have that one player to go to in crunch time.......GU is currently the latter.

Hoya fans need to be more realistic of what we have and what we are deficient in.

Michael Jordan isn't walking through that door.

[TBird41]

Personally, I think that the smartest thing to do at the end of a close game is try and get Roy open from behind the arc. It's definitely the highest percentage shot

[Hoya TMF]

aloud

[theexorcist]

"One more, Vern! One more and we're going all the way!"

[RDF]

Well--Alonzo Mourning would be welcomed at any moment.

You can take AI--I love the little guy but he would be an AWFUL fit for III's program.

Iverson is 32 years old and still doesn't understand he is talented enough to dominate games without scoring the basketball.

Jeff Green is 21 years old and did more then Iverson at Georgetown. Did he look as flashy? Did he average as many points?

Did he WIN? Did Georgetown get Big East Championship, BET Title, and to the Final Four? Did Jeff win BE POY?

All that matters is winning. It's easier to win with a PROGRAM/SYSTEM then with a great player. Players come and go--but a style of play that wins--attracts the type of players who will keep you in contention and winning.

If I had a choice of Allen Iverson or Jeff Green and I was building a college program, I take Green. Green dominated without needing to score 20 points. Iverson needed to score to be a dominant player--if he couldn't score--he didn't do anything to help Hoyas win games. His DPOY awards were comical--he wasn't as good as Jeff was defensively or as an all around player. Talent wise-he is far superior--but as a player--I'd take Green every day of the week.

BTW-who hit more game winning shots as a Hoya-AI or Green? AI never hit a game winning shot until the NBA and Jeff hit 2 of the biggest shots in Hoya Basketball History--ND in BET Semis and Game winner against Vandy. Which system did Green play in again?

[theexorcist]

RDF:

Note that Iverson played when freshmen weren't exodizing to the NBA. I still think that Jeff ranks above the Answer because he stayed three years rather than two, but tearing AI down doesn't seem fair.

[TrueHoyaBlue]

So what you're saying, hoya9397, is that you would prefer, with 10 seconds to go and the Hoyas needing a basket, that there be one player that everyone on our team, the other team, and in the building knows going to try to create a final shot for himself off the dribble, and if it works we win, if not we lose?

I think that the last person we had to fit that mold (and who absolutely loved the role) was Kevin Braswell, and I for one--and apparently many others on this thread--am happy that this Hoya system doesn't resemble that one at all, in style or in results.

[HoyasAreHungry]

Hoya9397 i think this makes no sense at all.....our players definitely have the ability to take on players one on one and create their own shots. The so called "system" you speak of predicates that they share the ball and get wide open shots rather than rely solely on their one on one abilities. When needed they certainly can. This is what is so effective about the sets we run. Countless experts have credited the fact that we combine the total team effort of the "Princeton offense" and combine it with great athletes (or individually gifted players however you want to look at it). Have you not seen jwall breaking ankles at Rutgers? Jessie sapp getting into the lane regularly with ease? Dajaun summers creating match up nightmares for smaller 3 guards. or slower 4s?. One of Austin's strengths coming into gtown was his ability to get into the lane and make controlled effective plays. And Roy? come on, he shot something like 60 percent (prob more) last year from the field. Granted he hasn't produced as well as we had hoped to this point but the last game showed flashes of his old self. I will hold judgment until tomorrow to say whether or not he is back to his form of last year but I am confident we will see it. The best thing about all these players (with the exception of Roy) is they aren't one dimensional. All can pull up and hit a jumpshot so defenders have to respect both the shot and the drive, making them all the more dangerous. Basically your original post lacks the insight that an educated view of our personnel would have provided.