FewFAC
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Post by FewFAC on Oct 29, 2007 15:02:36 GMT -5
What it looks like that Kobe's holding out to force the Lakers to make a trade that does not include Deng I root for any trade because not only would it bring the best player currently playing to the second city, but it has the potential to get rid of Noah! I'm not particularly a fan of Stay-Puft(c) Marshmallow Noah (though I was a huge fan of his dad's), but not including Deng in a trade for Kobe is gonna make the trade an even greater fleecing for the Bulls. To not include Deng would up the ante on what Chicago has to give up (Gordon, Thomas, Noah, Sefolosha, and a first- and second-rounder) and would crush the Bulls' only current redeeming quality--talented depth. The Bulls would, in essence, become the Lakers, with a coach much less capable of managing such a team, and a GM and front office much less inclined to acquiesce to star-player pecadilloes. The Bulls entire philosophy and chemistry will be wrecked by a trade for Kobe, and Skiles will lose other players who remain on the roster because of the philosophy shift. Of course, I already concluded that Skiles=Doug Collins, so he's gotta be freaked out by such talk, because if the org gives up that much to land Kobe, Skiles doesn't have anywhere near the presence or strength to impose his will on Kobe, and even if he did, Kobe will not be the loser, otherwise you'll just have the cancer thing going on again with a demand for a trade to somewhere else because he remains unhappy in Chicago or he leaves as a FA after four years, tops. If Chicago is serious, they'll have to package Ben Wallace with Kirk Hinrich after acquiring Kobe to land anyone with post skills, like maybe Chris Bosh.
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vcjack
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by vcjack on Oct 29, 2007 15:24:36 GMT -5
I don't think any trade that has both Tyrus Thomas and Noah is worth considering. I think the trade works (if LA gets desperate enough) with Gordon, Noah, Nocioni, 1st round pick. And move Wallace to someone else, for whom I'm not sure
That gives a lineup of
1: Hinrich 2: Kobe 3: Deng 4: Thomas or Noah 5 (gulp) Aaron Gray
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TBird41
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"Roy! I Love All 7'2" of you Roy!"
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Post by TBird41 on Oct 29, 2007 15:36:43 GMT -5
If Chicago is serious, they'll have to package Ben Wallace with Kirk Hinrich after acquiring Kobe to land anyone with post skills, like maybe Chris Bosh. Maybe it's just me, but I don't see Toronto giving up a guy they see as the face of their franchise (and honestly, who better to be the face of the Raptors than a guy who looks like a Raptor?) for a past his prime Ben Wallace and a second tier point guard like Kirk Hinrich.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Oct 29, 2007 15:42:47 GMT -5
Kobe has no-trade clause-he can veto any trade that he doesn't like. That puts Lakers in a bind--and likely getting less in return for him then they could've gotten.
If he goes to Chicago--Skiles will have this year to try and win--and then the lure of Kobe and "hometown" will be thrown at..... COACH K---don't laugh--and just wait and see. Coach K will be asked to take over if Kobe heads to Chi-town--and it's "home" for Coach K, so I could see him seriously considering that offer unlike the mock "interest" he showed Lakers--which was all so they would hold a "We still love you Coach K" rally at Duke.
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Post by FrostbackHoya on Oct 30, 2007 8:14:53 GMT -5
If Chicago is serious, they'll have to package Ben Wallace with Kirk Hinrich after acquiring Kobe to land anyone with post skills, like maybe Chris Bosh. Maybe it's just me, but I don't see Toronto giving up a guy they see as the face of their franchise (and honestly, who better to be the face of the Raptors than a guy who looks like a Raptor?) for a past his prime Ben Wallace and a second tier point guard like Kirk Hinrich. ... are the best part of the team. TJ Ford and Jose Calderon are both first unit caliber, young, and coming in to their own. I wouldn't trade either for Kirk, straight up. The Raps aren't going to do a Tier II level trade -- either it'll be a blockbuster for a Kobe themselves, or some tinkering around the edges (none of the small forwards have proven themselves; Juan Dixon is just too short to be the 2nd unit sg.) The Raps are flying under the radar right now, but if Bargnani is as legit as he seemed in the pre-season, they could win the East. Everyone is expecting them to take a step back since they didn't do as much as others (notably the C's), but unlike, say, the Nets, this is a really young team just coming into its own. If they gel, they'll win 50+.
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FewFAC
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by FewFAC on Oct 30, 2007 13:38:01 GMT -5
I don't think any trade that has both Tyrus Thomas and Noah is worth considering. I think the trade works (if LA gets desperate enough) with Gordon, Noah, Nocioni, 1st round pick. And move Wallace to someone else, for whom I'm not sure That gives a lineup of 1: Hinrich 2: Kobe 3: Deng 4: Thomas or Noah 5 (gulp) Aaron Gray I'd be almost 100% that Gordon, Noah, Noc, and 1R would not be enough to interest the Lakers. Throw in a 2R, maybe. But then looking at a starting five of Hinrich, Kobe, Deng, Thomas and Gray, and you think Kobe has problems in LA? There won't be enough ball to go around and the Bulls sink faster than a can of beans on Letterman's float or sink. Kobe hates playing for Phil? Wait until he gets to Chicago, realizes he's not MJ, and he's essentially traded down for a JV coach. Bulls fans tempted by the allure of the greatest living professional basketball player? Just wait until they realize that they mortgaged their future (again) for the downside of Kobe's career. I'm not saying it can't get done, because the lure of Kobe is just too irresistable for the Bulls. But the elusive idea that the Bulls are trying to grasp already got eclipsed in the East by Boston landing KG AND Ray Allen. Heck, a healthy Nets team would probably spank the Bulls, even if they made the trade for Kobe.
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FewFAC
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Post by FewFAC on Oct 30, 2007 13:40:13 GMT -5
If Chicago is serious, they'll have to package Ben Wallace with Kirk Hinrich after acquiring Kobe to land anyone with post skills, like maybe Chris Bosh. Maybe it's just me, but I don't see Toronto giving up a guy they see as the face of their franchise (and honestly, who better to be the face of the Raptors than a guy who looks like a Raptor?) for a past his prime Ben Wallace and a second tier point guard like Kirk Hinrich. I'd doubt Toronto would part with Bosh either, though any combination of future draft picks might be tempting, if they were far enough into the future to assure missing the weak draft classes coming in the next couple of years. My larger point being, realistically, unless the Bulls miraculously get the #1 pick in the lottery this year and land Hibbert, they've missed their window.
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FewFAC
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by FewFAC on Oct 30, 2007 13:48:19 GMT -5
Maybe it's just me, but I don't see Toronto giving up a guy they see as the face of their franchise (and honestly, who better to be the face of the Raptors than a guy who looks like a Raptor?) for a past his prime Ben Wallace and a second tier point guard like Kirk Hinrich. ... are the best part of the team. TJ Ford and Jose Calderon are both first unit caliber, young, and coming in to their own. I wouldn't trade either for Kirk, straight up. The Raps aren't going to do a Tier II level trade -- either it'll be a blockbuster for a Kobe themselves, or some tinkering around the edges (none of the small forwards have proven themselves; Juan Dixon is just too short to be the 2nd unit sg.) The Raps are flying under the radar right now, but if Bargnani is as legit as he seemed in the pre-season, they could win the East. Everyone is expecting them to take a step back since they didn't do as much as others (notably the C's), but unlike, say, the Nets, this is a really young team just coming into its own. If they gel, they'll win 50+. How would the Raptors put together a deal for Kobe? I'd think they'd have to part with Bosh and either Ford or Calderon plus a couple of draft picks for it to work. I think the Raptors are a nice team, but they got by a bunch of teams with serious injury problems last year, who, if healthy, are gonna steal a few games in Toronto and win at home. I'd expect to Orlando to eclipse Toronto this year if the Magic stay healthy and Nelson continues to improve.
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FewFAC
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Post by FewFAC on Oct 30, 2007 13:50:53 GMT -5
Kobe has no-trade clause-he can veto any trade that he doesn't like. That puts Lakers in a bind--and likely getting less in return for him then they could've gotten. If he goes to Chicago--Skiles will have this year to try and win--and then the lure of Kobe and "hometown" will be thrown at..... COACH K---don't laugh--and just wait and see. Coach K will be asked to take over if Kobe heads to Chi-town--and it's "home" for Coach K, so I could see him seriously considering that offer unlike the mock "interest" he showed Lakers--which was all so they would hold a "We still love you Coach K" rally at Duke. Kobe's no-trade is what's gonna continue to be the problem. He's gotta realize that if he hates LA and Phil and Jerry so much that he wants out, he's gonna have to take a deal that's really bad for the team he's gonna go to, or else the Lakers front office is gonna veto the deal. As for K, that would be interesting to say the least, though I'd think Pax might have to be gone too.
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FewFAC
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Post by FewFAC on Oct 30, 2007 14:43:15 GMT -5
I don't think any trade that has both Tyrus Thomas and Noah is worth considering. I think the trade works (if LA gets desperate enough) with Gordon, Noah, Nocioni, 1st round pick. And move Wallace to someone else, for whom I'm not sure That gives a lineup of 1: Hinrich 2: Kobe 3: Deng 4: Thomas or Noah 5 (gulp) Aaron Gray Oh, I forgot, the reason why Gordon, Noah, Noc and a 1R isn't gonna work is cap considerations. To keep Deng, the Bulls will likely have to ship two of Gordon, Hinrich and Wallace just for cap purposes alone. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say the Lakers aren't gonna take Wallace unless the Bulls pay a significant portion of his post-trade salary, and even then, the Bulls would still have to send Gordon or Hinrich, plus Thomas or Noah, plus a draft pick, though maybe not a 1R.
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Oct 30, 2007 15:07:10 GMT -5
Why are the Bulls fans on this board so anti-Noah? I understand that he was "the enemy" in college ball, but once they go to the pros those kinds of animosities tend to disappear. Don't get me wrong, you still avidly follow your own, but you don't typically have the disdain for others .... unless, of course they are from Syracuse, in which case we all still carry that disdain to the grave. In all seriousness, in most of the articles I have read, Noah is being received warmly by the Bulls fans. Incidentally, this is a pretty good article for true basketball fans: www.oregonlive.com/sports/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/sports/1192764316140270.xml&coll=7warning in advance, it does discuss a Gator among others.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2007 15:10:47 GMT -5
.... unless, of course they are from Syracuse, in which case we all still carry that disdain to the grave. Brown Noser
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vcjack
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Post by vcjack on Oct 30, 2007 15:15:27 GMT -5
Why are the Bulls fans on this board so anti-Noah? I understand that he was "the enemy" in college ball, but once they go to the pros those kinds of animosities tend to disappear. Don't get me wrong, you still avidly follow your own, but you don't typically have the disdain for others .... unless, of course they are from Syracuse, in which case we all still carry that disdain to the grave. In all seriousness, in most of the articles I have read, Noah is being received warmly by the Bulls fans. Incidentally, this is a pretty good article for true basketball fans: www.oregonlive.com/sports/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/sports/1192764316140270.xml&coll=7warning in advance, it does discuss a Gator among others. Its not just his attitude, its the fact that he doesn't fill any of the Bulls' needs (offensive low post play). The fact that most consider a second rounder (Aaron Gray) more important to the organization says a lot. I don't doubt that he can have a good pro career, just not on this Chicago team.
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Post by FrostbackHoya on Oct 30, 2007 15:31:18 GMT -5
Toronto won a number of games at the end of last season with their best sf out (Garbajosa). I'm not saying they're a lock to improve, but they're a better team than anyone in the East gives them credit for, and they'll not back into the playoffs (see Knicks, NY or Nets, NJ).
To answer your Kobe question: Raps would have to send Rasho (starting 5 last year), one of Jose or TJ (probably TJ), and some salary (Dixon and Graham would be my bets) to LA. So, LA gets a starting C and a starting PG and two decent backups. Toronto has a fabulous group of starters (Bargnani, Bosh, Kobe, Parker, Jose) but the bench is decimated. Ergo, I don't think it has a chance of happening.
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hifigator
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by hifigator on Oct 30, 2007 16:06:25 GMT -5
.... unless, of course they are from Syracuse, in which case we all still carry that disdain to the grave. Brown Noser In case you haven't stayed on top of the issue, I HATE Syracuse! The only team I hate to that same degree is FSU. Nobody else is even close. Georgia, Tennessee, Miami, LSU and Auburn are all big-time Gator rivals, but I don't have remotely the same animosity towards any of them that I do of Syracuse and FSU. Now if FSU is playing Syracuse, I'm just not going to watch. The only thing I could root for is a big fight breaks out, leaving multiple players from each team on the floor bloodied and bruised, only to then have to sit out a few games for fighting. Incidentally, I don't have the same hatred for Maryland that most of you do. I don't like them, but they are more of the Auburn or LSU mold to me, as far as my level of disdain.
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JimmyHoya
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Hoya fan, est. 1986
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Post by JimmyHoya on Oct 30, 2007 17:33:05 GMT -5
Why don't you like Syracuse again? And you should raise Maryland to the FSU/'cuse threshold of hate out of principle.
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hoyarooter
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by hoyarooter on Oct 30, 2007 19:38:56 GMT -5
Toronto won a number of games at the end of last season with their best sf out (Garbajosa). I'm not saying they're a lock to improve, but they're a better team than anyone in the East gives them credit for, and they'll not back into the playoffs (see Knicks, NY or Nets, NJ). To answer your Kobe question: Raps would have to send Rasho (starting 5 last year), one of Jose or TJ (probably TJ), and some salary (Dixon and Graham would be my bets) to LA. So, LA gets a starting C and a starting PG and two decent backups. Toronto has a fabulous group of starters (Bargnani, Bosh, Kobe, Parker, Jose) but the bench is decimated. Ergo, I don't think it has a chance of happening. Ha, ha, ha. Nasterovic stinks (I don't know that he's even better than Kwame) and another so-so point guard isn't the Lakers' biggest need. They'll have to get another sg to replace Kobe. This deal has zero chance of happening. There's absolutely nothing in it to appeal to the Lakers.
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Post by FrostbackHoya on Oct 31, 2007 7:17:08 GMT -5
You're right (although I think you underestimate both Rasho and TJ). The Raps don't have anything they're willing to trade that the Lakers would want. The chances of Colangelo trading any of his 22 year old starting three (TJ, Bosh, Bargs) is zero. Ergo, Raps are off the table, like 90% of the other teams in the league. The Bulls just have to decide how bad they want Kobe.
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vcjack
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Post by vcjack on Oct 31, 2007 11:45:14 GMT -5
Lakers fans boo Kobe, and then he goes and scores 45. nice, I'm liking this guy a little more in a Bulls uni
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Cambridge
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Canes Pugnaces
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Post by Cambridge on Oct 31, 2007 12:17:37 GMT -5
Utah looked really legit last night. They have no holes in their game; banged it inside early at their leisure, then bombed away from the mid-range to perimeter later after the Warriors had packed in the zone. Solid defense and team rebounding.
Oh, and AK47 was blocking shots at an astounding pace. I'd be very, very nervous about the Jazz if my team was in the West, they have a real shot at grabbing the brass ring this year. Barring injuries, I'd wager they finish third in the West.
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