Enough To Make RDF's Head Spin

[Deleted]

Kevin McHale and Billy King, two of the top GM's in all of sport.

sports.espn.go.com/espn/news/story?id=2788149

Clearly a horribly flawed formula. Anything that doesn't have Scott Pioli and Lou Lamoriello 1-2 is by definition a joke. Not to mention Glen Sather's inclusion in the top tier.

[DanMcQ]

McHale's team just lost to the Celtics, for God's sake! That should automatically disqualify him from consideration, shouldn't it?

[RDF]

This is why Forbes has nothing to do with Sports and to be honest--it's a possible reason to disband the magazine completely. McHale and King are so mentally challenged and lost in the roles they serve--they make Isiah Thomas look as if he's Jerry West or Scott Pioli.

[hoyarooter]

I was laughing so hard when I read that article, I almost wet myself. I even sent the Sports Dope an email, as I can't wait to see what he writes about this. I first checked the calendar to make sure it wasn't April Fools Day.

[ExcitableBoy]

McHale is light years away from being the best GM in his own town! The Twins' Terry Ryan is by far the best thing going for Minnesota franchises right now. In fact, I might choose him straight up over McHale as the new Wolves' GM.

[RDF]

I'm still scratching my head over this and wondering if anyone will take notice that McHale and King were in a "Race" to see who could get Randy Foye--yes Randy Foye as if he's the difference in making you a contender. Foye has been so crappy he's been benched in favor of Troy Hudson--who was working on his rap career more then his game--and I'm being completely serious-T-Hud or T-Huddy as he likes to be called is the WACKEST MC of all time--he wouldn't even make it to a cut if placed in casting call for White Trash Rapper Show on VH-1.

As for McHale--he trades the likely Rookie of the Year Brandon Roy for the rights to Foye and many people forget that--McHale had the NBA Rookie of the Year drafted--and then trades him for a marginal/role player--who will never be much more then a role player. If he were to trade Foye--he could've received Allen Iverson from King--who wanted Foye as badly as McHale did--and despite the fact I doubt Iverson/KG alone could win anything, they would've at least filled the building, brought excitement to Target Center/Twin Cities, and made an ideal pairing--with Garnett being happy to see someone else willing to take on offensive responsibility.

[hifigator]

excitableboy said:

McHale is light years away from being the best GM in his own town! The Twins' Terry Ryan is by far the best thing going for Minnesota franchises right now. In fact, I might choose him straight up over McHale as the new Wolves' GM.

Great point. That came up just the other day and the consensus opinion is that the Twins and the A's might just be the best run organizations, certainly in MLB anyhow.

[Deleted]

hifigator said:

Great point. That came up just the other day and the consensus opinion is that the Twins and the A's might just be the best run organizations, certainly in MLB anyhow.

And yet both have serious difficulties filling the stands.

Best run baseball opertaions, perhaps. The argument could be made. But "best run organizations"?

I think not.

[hifigator]

OK, I need to rephrase that. It was intended in the context of putting a quality product on the field with the least amount of money spent, which is of course necessitated by the fact that there aren't enough fans in the seats to allow greater expenditures.

I think we were talking about making the best player personnel decisions, not overspending on athletes while also developing the raw talent they have to start with. Drafting well doesn't hurt either.

[RDF]

buffalohoya said:

hifigator said:

Great point. That came up just the other day and the consensus opinion is that the Twins and the A's might just be the best run organizations, certainly in MLB anyhow.

And yet both have serious difficulties filling the stands.

Best run baseball opertaions, perhaps. The argument could be made. But "best run organizations"?

I think not.

Buff, being that I live in middle of the BANDWAGON CITIES, I mean "Twin Cities", I can vouch for your point on Twins organization. Of course when you have an owner that anyone who knows a thing about him despises, and a town that obsesses about being a "Small Market" all of the damn time, yet never wants to take fault for ruining salary cap structure of NBA with Garnett's deal, what do you expect?

I hate Minnesota teams--but more then that, I hate their fans. They are the type of people who are beyond obnoxious when winning and first site of losing, they show up next week with a Bears, Packer, or you name it jersey on. They didn't show up or support Twins during their down times and yet the Twins have the only 2 WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS in this city in modern era. They got Editeded about Selig wanting to do away with franchise, but they didn't support it, and then when team is flourishing with young talent, talk as if it's the '27 Yankees. First loss in Playoffs, and they are onto Vikings--who then go on to lose, and it's onto whatever team is hot that year. T-Wolves fans? Pathetic. The 1 year they were successful--this was "NBA City" and now you can't find 5 people in this state to admit they are fans. They are loyal in their passive attitude towards Gopher FB, and then whine about Wisconsin/Iowa for having better programs despite the lack of support/interest.

I'm sure there are other places like this, but living here and being in a few other cities, this place is the worst for not sticking with teams I've ever seen and then whining/complaining about the lack of "attention" given by National media when they do win. They want it both ways and yet they are cause of problem. I hate Twins, but I supported efforts to keep them/new stadium because I enjoy MLB and seeing other teams play--and the Twins have actually been the LONE organization here that has been successful since I've lived here--unlike those criminals on Vikings or the mediocre and poorly run T-Wolves. While I enjoy the misery and feel that having McHale, Wittman, Zygi Wilf, Chilly Childress is punishment enough, I also appreciate the Gardenhires of the city who are regular guys, have succeeded another good manager in Tom Kelly who worked for a cheap, scumball owner like Pohlad and didn't whine. It's more then I can say for majority of Bandwagon City USA!

[hoyarooter]

Looking forward to TBird's response to this. ;D

[hifigator]

RDF, not that I disagree with your assessment of the Minnesota fans, it's just that it sounds rather odd coming from a Miami Hurricane fan. You are right about one thing: there are other areas like that -- Miami! They are well known in the south as being the biggest group of fair-weather fans in one place. Don't get me wrong, as I don't mean to suggest that there aren't ANY legit Cane fans and I am sure that you are one. But you are certainly the exception. They win a couple of Championships and suddenly "it's all about the U!" They struggle and then, well, it's on to something else. I posted the link back aways listing the #1 selling jersies in the Miami area and it was ridiculous. 3 years ago it was Tom Brady! This year, I am sure it will be Wade. Next year ... who knows what it will be. Miami sells out their home games against FSU and Va Tech. Other than that, it is normally only done when a team like Florida comes down to play.
That is just pathetic.

We sell out every single game. Yes, there are occassionally some scattered empty seats for a patsy here or there, but not many. Conference games, even against the likes of Vandy or Kentucky are full. Now I know there is a lot more to do in Miami than in Gainesville, but there are also a lot more people. The fans manage to find their venues to support their team when they are winning, but God forbid they lose a few.

[TBird41]

rdf said:

buffalohoya said:

And yet both have serious difficulties filling the stands.

Best run baseball opertaions, perhaps. The argument could be made. But "best run organizations"?

I think not.

Buff, being that I live in middle of the BANDWAGON CITIES, I mean "Twin Cities", I can vouch for your point on Twins organization. Of course when you have an owner that anyone who knows a thing about him despises, and a town that obsesses about being a "Small Market" all of the damn time, yet never wants to take fault for ruining salary cap structure of NBA with Garnett's deal, what do you expect?

I hate Minnesota teams--but more then that, I hate their fans. They are the type of people who are beyond obnoxious when winning and first site of losing, they show up next week with a Bears, Packer, or you name it jersey on. They didn't show up or support Twins during their down times and yet the Twins have the only 2 WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS in this city in modern era. They got Editeded about Selig wanting to do away with franchise, but they didn't support it, and then when team is flourishing with young talent, talk as if it's the '27 Yankees. First loss in Playoffs, and they are onto Vikings--who then go on to lose, and it's onto whatever team is hot that year. T-Wolves fans? Pathetic. The 1 year they were successful--this was "NBA City" and now you can't find 5 people in this state to admit they are fans. They are loyal in their passive attitude towards Gopher FB, and then whine about Wisconsin/Iowa for having better programs despite the lack of support/interest.

I'm sure there are other places like this, but living here and being in a few other cities, this place is the worst for not sticking with teams I've ever seen and then whining/complaining about the lack of "attention" given by National media when they do win. They want it both ways and yet they are cause of problem. I hate Twins, but I supported efforts to keep them/new stadium because I enjoy MLB and seeing other teams play--and the Twins have actually been the LONE organization here that has been successful since I've lived here--unlike those criminals on Vikings or the mediocre and poorly run T-Wolves. While I enjoy the misery and feel that having McHale, Wittman, Zygi Wilf, Chilly Childress is punishment enough, I also appreciate the Gardenhires of the city who are regular guys, have succeeded another good manager in Tom Kelly who worked for a cheap, scumball owner like Pohlad and didn't whine. It's more then I can say for majority of Bandwagon City USA!

The Twins draw pretty well considering how crappy of a stadium they have and that goign to a game requires being indoors during the few months the weather's actually nice. RFK is a better stadium for baseball than the Dome. Despite that, the Twins were the first baseball team to draw 3 million fans in 1992. No one went in the mid 1990s, because no one wanted to see a team put together by an owner who was threatening to move and admitting to fielding the cheapest team he could. I guess they should have just supported them loyally, instead of complaining. You know, just like I'm sure you supported Joe Lang and Esh when they were saying making the NCAAs every year was unreasonable.

And who knows how the Vikings have sold out every home game since 1998, what with all their fans trying to hop on the Packers/Bears bandwagons.

The Wild have sold out every game in their history. The T-Wolves have a GM that is an absolute joke that is roughly on par with Billy King and Isiah Thomas. Oddly enough, people aren't exactly excited about watching McHale waste KG's career.

But then again, you're right about one thing--McHale/Taylor giving KG a huge contract completely invalidates any points about the financial disparity faced by the Twins.

So why don't you go back to bitching about how much you miss Scott Brosius and lay off Minnesota fans?

[RDF]

tbird41 said:

rdf said:

Buff, being that I live in middle of the BANDWAGON CITIES, I mean "Twin Cities", I can vouch for your point on Twins organization. Of course when you have an owner that anyone who knows a thing about him despises, and a town that obsesses about being a "Small Market" all of the damn time, yet never wants to take fault for ruining salary cap structure of NBA with Garnett's deal, what do you expect?

I hate Minnesota teams--but more then that, I hate their fans. They are the type of people who are beyond obnoxious when winning and first site of losing, they show up next week with a Bears, Packer, or you name it jersey on. They didn't show up or support Twins during their down times and yet the Twins have the only 2 WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS in this city in modern era. They got Editeded about Selig wanting to do away with franchise, but they didn't support it, and then when team is flourishing with young talent, talk as if it's the '27 Yankees. First loss in Playoffs, and they are onto Vikings--who then go on to lose, and it's onto whatever team is hot that year. T-Wolves fans? Pathetic. The 1 year they were successful--this was "NBA City" and now you can't find 5 people in this state to admit they are fans. They are loyal in their passive attitude towards Gopher FB, and then whine about Wisconsin/Iowa for having better programs despite the lack of support/interest.

I'm sure there are other places like this, but living here and being in a few other cities, this place is the worst for not sticking with teams I've ever seen and then whining/complaining about the lack of "attention" given by National media when they do win. They want it both ways and yet they are cause of problem. I hate Twins, but I supported efforts to keep them/new stadium because I enjoy MLB and seeing other teams play--and the Twins have actually been the LONE organization here that has been successful since I've lived here--unlike those criminals on Vikings or the mediocre and poorly run T-Wolves. While I enjoy the misery and feel that having McHale, Wittman, Zygi Wilf, Chilly Childress is punishment enough, I also appreciate the Gardenhires of the city who are regular guys, have succeeded another good manager in Tom Kelly who worked for a cheap, scumball owner like Pohlad and didn't whine. It's more then I can say for majority of Bandwagon City USA!

The Twins draw pretty well considering how crappy of a stadium they have and that goign to a game requires being indoors during the few months the weather's actually nice. RFK is a better stadium for baseball than the Dome. Despite that, the Twins were the first baseball team to draw 3 million fans in 1992. No one went in the mid 1990s, because no one wanted to see a team put together by an owner who was threatening to move and admitting to fielding the cheapest team he could. I guess they should have just supported them loyally, instead of complaining. You know, just like I'm sure you supported Joe Lang and Esh when they were saying making the NCAAs every year was unreasonable.

And who knows how the Vikings have sold out every home game since 1998, what with all their fans trying to hop on the Packers/Bears bandwagons.

The Wild have sold out every game in their history. The T-Wolves have a GM that is an absolute joke that is roughly on par with Billy King and Isiah Thomas. Oddly enough, people aren't exactly excited about watching McHale waste KG's career.

But then again, you're right about one thing--McHale/Taylor giving KG a huge contract completely invalidates any points about the financial disparity faced by the Twins.

So why don't you go back to bitching about how much you miss Scott Brosius and lay off Minnesota fans?

Yes as all "Sell-outs" are filled with "Fans" of the hometeam. What a joke--the Viking "Fans" not only don't show once their team loses--they GIVE their tickets away--how do I know? I usually get about 100 tickets for any game I want after they lose their 4th game of the year and I use them to give to my co-workers. But what would I know about Vikings fans being "bandwagon"?

Twin fans are clowns--the entire city doesn't give a rip--and I'm not saying they should fill the place, but they didn't give a crap if they lost the team or not and that does matter--unless you want to make your city 2nd rate--losing Pro franchises doesn't help things--and they lost their hockey team and then whined/cried and spent more then what was being asked prior.

T-Wolves fans NEVER exist--they were there 1 year--and that is a joke.

Wild fans--those people go because of the Excel Center--not the team--they care more about Gopher Hockey around here.

I might complain about my teams--but I don't abandon them like the losers up here.

[ExcitableBoy]

rdf said:

tbird41 said:

The Twins draw pretty well considering how crappy of a stadium they have and that goign to a game requires being indoors during the few months the weather's actually nice. RFK is a better stadium for baseball than the Dome. Despite that, the Twins were the first baseball team to draw 3 million fans in 1992. No one went in the mid 1990s, because no one wanted to see a team put together by an owner who was threatening to move and admitting to fielding the cheapest team he could. I guess they should have just supported them loyally, instead of complaining. You know, just like I'm sure you supported Joe Lang and Esh when they were saying making the NCAAs every year was unreasonable.

And who knows how the Vikings have sold out every home game since 1998, what with all their fans trying to hop on the Packers/Bears bandwagons.

The Wild have sold out every game in their history. The T-Wolves have a GM that is an absolute joke that is roughly on par with Billy King and Isiah Thomas. Oddly enough, people aren't exactly excited about watching McHale waste KG's career.

But then again, you're right about one thing--McHale/Taylor giving KG a huge contract completely invalidates any points about the financial disparity faced by the Twins.

So why don't you go back to bitching about how much you miss Scott Brosius and lay off Minnesota fans?

Yes as all "Sell-outs" are filled with "Fans" of the hometeam. What a joke--the Viking "Fans" not only don't show once their team loses--they GIVE their tickets away--how do I know? I usually get about 100 tickets for any game I want after they lose their 4th game of the year and I use them to give to my co-workers. But what would I know about Vikings fans being "bandwagon"?

Twin fans are clowns--the entire city doesn't give a rip--and I'm not saying they should fill the place, but they didn't give a crap if they lost the team or not and that does matter--unless you want to make your city 2nd rate--losing Pro franchises doesn't help things--and they lost their hockey team and then whined/cried and spent more then what was being asked prior.

T-Wolves fans NEVER exist--they were there 1 year--and that is a joke.

Wild fans--those people go because of the Excel Center--not the team--they care more about Gopher Hockey around here.

I might complain about my teams--but I don't abandon them like the losers up here.

Actually, the Twins average attendance last year was about 2,000 fans per game less than the national average. So what you're saying is that because the Twins lack 2,000 additional fans than the average American baseball city, they are all clowns?

And despite perenially "giving up on the Vikings after 4 losses" every single seat is still purchased for every single Vikings home game every single year? What kind of people buy season tickets and give away at half their tickets in disgust every year. If anything, that it shows loyalty to continue purchasing tickets despite being fed up with a team to that extent.

As for Wild "fans", maybe you're absolutely right. Maybe 100% of the people who go to Wild games go there solely to see the Excel center. But that would also mean that the place is sold out for everything that goes on there. The lacrosse team that also plays there that struggles to draw 10,000 per game.

Minnesotans like hockey enough to bitch (rightly) about losing a team to TEXAS because, surprise surprise, midwesterners were reluctant to publicly fund a stadium in the early 1990's. Now that a team has returned, people support it despite its lacking star players and a storied history and this is somehow bad?? The argument that Minnesotans somehow aren't good hockey fans is just flat out wrong. They sell out arenas for two separate teams (pro & college) and 125,000 fans come to watch HIGH SCHOOL hockey every March.

[RDF]

excitableboy said:

rdf said:

Yes as all "Sell-outs" are filled with "Fans" of the hometeam. What a joke--the Viking "Fans" not only don't show once their team loses--they GIVE their tickets away--how do I know? I usually get about 100 tickets for any game I want after they lose their 4th game of the year and I use them to give to my co-workers. But what would I know about Vikings fans being "bandwagon"?

Twin fans are clowns--the entire city doesn't give a rip--and I'm not saying they should fill the place, but they didn't give a crap if they lost the team or not and that does matter--unless you want to make your city 2nd rate--losing Pro franchises doesn't help things--and they lost their hockey team and then whined/cried and spent more then what was being asked prior.

T-Wolves fans NEVER exist--they were there 1 year--and that is a joke.

Wild fans--those people go because of the Excel Center--not the team--they care more about Gopher Hockey around here.

I might complain about my teams--but I don't abandon them like the losers up here.

Actually, the Twins average attendance last year was about 2,000 fans per game less than the national average. So what you're saying is that because the Twins lack 2,000 additional fans than the average American baseball city, they are all clowns?

And despite perenially "giving up on the Vikings after 4 losses" every single seat is still purchased for every single Vikings home game every single year? What kind of people buy season tickets and give away at half their tickets in disgust every year. If anything, that it shows loyalty to continue purchasing tickets despite being fed up with a team to that extent.

As for Wild "fans", maybe you're absolutely right. Maybe 100% of the people who go to Wild games go there solely to see the Excel center. But that would also mean that the place is sold out for everything that goes on there. The lacrosse team that also plays there that struggles to draw 10,000 per game.

Minnesotans like hockey enough to bitch (rightly) about losing a team to TEXAS because, surprise surprise, midwesterners were reluctant to publicly fund a stadium in the early 1990's. Now that a team has returned, people support it despite its lacking star players and a storied history and this is somehow bad?? The argument that Minnesotans somehow aren't good hockey fans is just flat out wrong. They sell out arenas for two separate teams (pro & college) and 125,000 fans come to watch HIGH SCHOOL hockey every March.

Just because events are "Sold Out" doesn't mean people are going---often companies purchase tickets and use them for business--and often those invidiuals don't show or go to support other teams. If you go to a series where Twins play the Yankees, Red Sox, White Sox--the crowds are at LEAST a 1/3 supporting the other team and it's even worse if the Twins are losing.

Viking games are similar--and they had to change their ticket policies to prevent Green Bay and Chicago fans from dominating the crowd--which didn't work.

The Excel Center is a great place--and that is where many of the big time events are booked--due to it being superior in every way to Target Center minus the nightlife--but it's not like you can't go to Excel and then drive to Minneapolis to go out--it's 10 minutes away.

Minnesotans are good Hockey fans--they just prefer College Hockey--nothing wrong with it but the only reason the Wild do well in attendance has more to do with the place--then team. See how long that will continue to last.

I lived here for 3 decades now--nothing has changed. They whine/cry about lack of respect nationally, lack of attention, and yet they are type of fans that if Twins were to have a down year and finish 3rd in Al Central this year-they'd bail on these guys quicker then you can blink. Then 2 years later if Twins win World Title the same jokers that "don't care" will be right there saying "I've been a fan all my life". Being loyal isn't a necessity in life, but I value it and what I've seen growing up here and living here is something I just shake my head at. Being a Hoya fan--you know how much ribbing/laughing I took? People who were Duke fans--switched to UConn, and now are Florida fans when it comes to CBB--of course they were Gopher fans when Clem was cheating--like they were when Bill Mussleman was cheating, and they abandoned the program when all Monson did was do what the fans wanted--take local kids and make them his team--while poaching from other programs to do so-that didn't work and now they are looking at Reggie Theus as a possibility. Why? McKinley Boston--the man who hired the Clem hired him at New Mexico State and he'd bring back winning--at any/all costs. It's a funny place but maybe it's just that I've not lived in other cities and experienced the same thing--I'm sure it happens elsewhere too, but man are these people full of it.

[ExcitableBoy]

I agree that the Twin Cities has some pretty fair weathered fans. Some of this has to do with the fact that it's simply not a large metropolitan area relative to how many sports options there are in the cities alone (not to mention non-sports options). It might also have to do with the type of person who lives in Minnesota. For example, if the Twins are having a bad year, why waste a summer day driving to the Metrodome to sit and watch a horrid team in a horrid stadium with a roof over your head? Pretty reasonable question, I'd say.

Also, the nature of fan support is, with the exception of certain programs, very cyclical. I was most games during the '03-'04 debacle that was Georgetown basketball. Trust me, our fans weren't exactly pouring in then. Now, we draw 10,000+ easily and when we play Duke, Pitt, or WVU, the stadium is ONLY 1/3 filled with visiting fans, which is a vast improvement. What's more, St. John's, for example, drew only 7,000 fans per game this year. That is simply awful. Are New Yorkers thus also bad fans?

My point is that other than large state schools with die hard alumni bases, and the top handful of premier clubs in each sport, it is normal for fans to ebb and blow based on recent success. Fans that do this might very well be termed bandwaggoners by people who devote themselves to one team, but people across the country are guilty of this and it's not necessarily just a Minnesota thing. (See Cleveland Indians, Chicago Blackhawks, Arizona Cardinals, & Philadelphia 76ers)