Bahstin
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by Bahstin on Nov 14, 2005 15:07:56 GMT -5
On winning another individual award.
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Hank Scorpio
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
You're gonna die now!
Posts: 573
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Nov 14, 2005 15:30:42 GMT -5
who really cares who wins MVP? i bet it's voted on by the same people who thought Bartolo Colon was the best pitcher in the American League.
as for A-Rod, he put up the same numbers in just about every category except RBIs [which are overrated anyway, the yankees are going to overpay matsui badly for them] and he did so in a park that is murder on right handed hitters while Ortiz played in Fenway's confines. i think justice was served...fact is, the guy is so good, that if he gets 550 ABs a season, you will be asking "you think A-Rod can win MVP this year?"
anyway, i am more interested in next season than handing out hardware for this season
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hoyarooter
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Posts: 10,212
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Post by hoyarooter on Nov 15, 2005 20:35:04 GMT -5
who really cares who wins MVP? i bet it's voted on by the same people who thought Bartolo Colon was the best pitcher in the American League. as for A-Rod, he put up the same numbers in just about every category except RBIs [which are overrated anyway, the yankees are going to overpay matsui badly for them] and he did so in a park that is murder on right handed hitters while Ortiz played in Fenway's confines. i think justice was served...fact is, the guy is so good, that if he gets 550 ABs a season, you will be asking "you think A-Rod can win MVP this year?" anyway, i am more interested in next season than handing out hardware for this season Uh, oh. I hear RDF a-comin'. ;D |
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RDF
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 8,835
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Post by RDF on Nov 15, 2005 23:45:21 GMT -5
Well it's amazing that this guy is AL MVP and it could be argued that he's not the most valuable player on his own team--I'd have given that to Mariano--but I'm biased towards him and thought he was ripped off in Cy Young by that FAT BLOB Colon. Also thought Willis deserved it over Carpenter in NL.
A-Rotten got his trophy and he can be happy as he's not under the pressure to produce an MVP season in NY. Now it's on him to produce a TITLE and he better step up soon or he'll officially reach a whole new level of pressure--the Boss will finally unload.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Nov 15, 2005 23:50:09 GMT -5
Santana was the best pitcher in the AL. He was better than Colon in EVERY category except wins, which are largely team dependent. I suppose you can make an argument for Rivera, but I'd go with Santana.
Carpenter certainly deserved the Cy Young.
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RDF
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 8,835
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Post by RDF on Nov 16, 2005 2:05:51 GMT -5
Santana padded his ERA and numbers down the stretch against meaningless opponents in meaningless games. When Twins were making a run at Sox, he posted a 3.76 ERA and was 1-3 which was provided by Patrick Reusse of the Minneapolis Star Tribune in his rebuttal to Twins fans who said Santana was robbed. Reusse thought Rivera should've won it and mentioned the other Relievers who have won prior to Mariano--who is only the greatest Closer of all time.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Nov 16, 2005 10:55:32 GMT -5
Wins don't count the same earlier in the season as later? I missed that. The Twins were well aware they were in the pennant race all year.
Rivera is a very nice closer. Greatest of all Time? Eh, he's certainly in contention for best of the modern, misused, wuss closers, but since that encompasses a maximum of 20 years. Someone like Hoyt Wilhelm was much more valuable to his team.
Most of the other relievers who won Cy Young (like Mark Davis) probably shouldn't have. I wouldn't have been angry with Rivera winning, but using a subjective amount of starts for Santana to say he wasn't "clutch" is a silly, invalid argument.
Rivera pitched 77 innings. Santana pitched 231.7 innings. Even saying that Rivera's were twice as important and they might have been), he's still another one of himself short of the value of Santana.
Did Rivera pitch better than Santana when in? A bit. But part of what makes a pitcher valuable is his ability to pitch in quantity as well as quality. And Santana just obliterates Rivera in IP.
(as for the NL, I should amend my statement. My vote would've gone to Roger, but Carpenter isn't a bad choice).
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Hank Scorpio
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
You're gonna die now!
Posts: 573
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Nov 16, 2005 11:53:03 GMT -5
I love Rivera, and if Santana was out for the season and it was Colon vs Rivera, i'd have given it to Mo. but i agree with you, SF. Santana's game log is just stunning, esp vs divisional opponents sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/gamelog?playerId=42805 starts vs White Sox: 4 wins, a no decision, and 4 runs scored in 40+ innings. also, his 3.76 ERA in that "rough stretch" you cite, RDF, is a mere .26 more than Colon's ERA for the season. column on A-Rod's MVP by the immortal steve goldman...highly recommended you pick up "mind game" by him and a bunch of other baseball prospectus writers. it's about the Red Sox 2004 world series team, comparing their offseason vs the yankees offseason leading up to that season and chronicling the rise, fall, and rise again of the Red Sox. made me appreciate theo epstein a little bit more. www.yesnetwork.com/yankees/pinstripedbible.aspWins don't count the same earlier in the season as later? I missed that. The Twins were well aware they were in the pennant race all year. Rivera is a very nice closer. Greatest of all Time? Eh, he's certainly in contention for best of the modern, misused, wuss closers, but since that encompasses a maximum of 20 years. Someone like Hoyt Wilhelm was much more valuable to his team. Most of the other relievers who won Cy Young (like Mark Davis) probably shouldn't have. I wouldn't have been angry with Rivera winning, but using a subjective amount of starts for Santana to say he wasn't "clutch" is a silly, invalid argument. Rivera pitched 77 innings. Santana pitched 231.7 innings. Even saying that Rivera's were twice as important and they might have been), he's still another one of himself short of the value of Santana. Did Rivera pitch better than Santana when in? A bit. But part of what makes a pitcher valuable is his ability to pitch in quantity as well as quality. And Santana just obliterates Rivera in IP. (as for the NL, I should amend my statement. My vote would've gone to Roger, but Carpenter isn't a bad choice). |
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Nov 16, 2005 13:13:42 GMT -5
I would have voted for Rivera and Carpenter. Rivera might have had the second best season by a modern reliever ever (behind Gagne). I would have taken Santana over Colon, but (his performance against my ChiSox excepted) he just wasn't as overpowering this year as last. It's a close call, but I would take Rivera. And I hate the Yankees, so there is no bias involved in that assessment.
Carpenter and Clemens both faded late, and of course Clemens was victimized by lack of support, but Carpenter was every bit as phenomenal from May until mid-August as Clemens, and Carpenter beat Clemens twice head to head, and I think that should count for something. Willis was the steadiest of the three throughout the season, but I still would pick Carpenter due to his complete dominance during that lengthy period. It seemed like his typical line was 8 innings, one run, four hits, one walk, eleven strikeouts.
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TBird41
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
"Roy! I Love All 7'2" of you Roy!"
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Post by TBird41 on Nov 16, 2005 13:54:01 GMT -5
I would have taken Santana over Colon, but (his performance against my ChiSox excepted) he just wasn't as overpowering this year as last. Ummm, so he wasn't as ridiculous as he was last year. How does it make his season this year any worse in comparison with Colon's season or Rivera's season? I think that in order for a modern day closer to win the Cy Young two things need to happen: 1) have a ridiculous Gagne like season (not sure if Rivera qualifies here-4 blown saves doesn't seem all that small an amount) because they just don't pitch enough. 80 innings is such a small amount of work in comparison with 200+. 2) There needs to be an shortage of Cy worthy starters. Colon wasn't worthy. Santana was, but his offense wasn't there for him this year. You give Colon's run support to Santana and he'd have won 20+ games. |
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SFHoya99
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Posts: 17,744
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Post by SFHoya99 on Nov 16, 2005 22:23:19 GMT -5
Baseball Prospectus isn't perfect, but they do have some wonderful stats. One contested stat is DERA -- or, basically, defense independent ERA. It isn't perfect, so I'm going to show the relevant stats for a bunch of great closer seasons:
A - 78 IP, 1.38 ERA, 2.06 DERA
B - 73 IP, 1.48 ERA, 1.85 DERA
C - 82 IP, 1.20 ERA, 1.62 DERA
D - 95 IP, 1.90 ERA, 2.04 DERA
E - 78 IP, 1.72 ERA, 2.19 DERA
F - 108 IP, 2.09 ERA, 1.81 DERA
G - 75 IP, 1.57 ERA, 1.77 DERA
H - 73 IP, 2.10 ERA, 2.39 DERA
I - 65 IP, 1.12 ERA. 1.49 DERA
J - 105 IP, 2.22 ERA, 2.02 DERA
K - 70 IP, 1.29 ERA, 1.66 DERA
L - 64 IP, 1.12 ERA, 1.45 DERA
Now, A is obviously Mariano Rivera, 2005. The rest of those seasons that I listed are comparable or better. The guide? The best seasons of:
Trevor Hoffman, Eric Gagne, Brad Lidge, Huston Street (2005!), Rivera (1996), Billy Wagner, Todd Jones (2005!), John Smoltz, Keith Foulke, Armando Benitez and Jose Freaking Mesa.
I got bored looking up more. If you think Rivera should have won, why not Todd Jones or Huston Street? Why not Hoffman in '98? Truth is, seasons like this happen all the time for closers. It isn't even Rivera's best season.
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