SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Aug 1, 2005 20:57:21 GMT -5
Raffy's not my type of HOF, but he is essentially the 90s's-00's version of Eddie Murray. He was better than most HOF 1B.
That said, he would've gotten my vote (if I had one) before yesterday, but no longer. After reading Will Carroll's article, there deosnt' seem to be a large chance of a false positive, or that he didn't know what he was taking. He's a cheater, and we have more proof than versus almost anyone in thei steroid-filled era.
Would he have been a HOF pre-roids? Maybe. DId roids help him a lot? I dunno. But he cheated and that's enough for me to keep him out.
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the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
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Post by the_way on Aug 2, 2005 8:13:33 GMT -5
Raffy's not my type of HOF, but he is essentially the 90s's-00's version of Eddie Murray. He was better than most HOF 1B. That said, he would've gotten my vote (if I had one) before yesterday, but no longer. After reading Will Carroll's article, there deosnt' seem to be a large chance of a false positive, or that he didn't know what he was taking. He's a cheater, and we have more proof than versus almost anyone in thei steroid-filled era. Would he have been a HOF pre-roids? Maybe. DId roids help him a lot? I dunno. But he cheated and that's enough for me to keep him out. As a lifelong Orioles fan, I ask that you please do not even put Eddie Murray and Rafael Palmiero in the same sentence. That is an insult. Eddie Murray is one of the best clutch hitters of all time. The "Ed-die, Ed-die" chants at Memorial statdium when the team needed a go-ahead run or a base hit, were almost always answer by Mr. Clutch himself, Eddie Murray. The man was unbelievable. Raffy has numbers, thats it. He is like the Mitch Richmond of baseball. He fills the stat sheet, but thats all he does. He brings nothing else to the table. Eddie brought stats AND the intangibles to the table.
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TBird41
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"Roy! I Love All 7'2" of you Roy!"
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Post by TBird41 on Aug 2, 2005 8:38:36 GMT -5
_way--out of curiousity, what do you think of moneyball and sabrmetrics? Especially, the sabrmetrics' inability to find any statistical support for clutch hitting. I know where you stand when it comes to basketball, but baseball statistics have been shown to be a very reliable predictor, so I'm wondering if you've embraced the sabrmetric revolution or have completely disregarded it, ala Joe Morgan, or somewhere in between.
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hoyaboy1
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by hoyaboy1 on Aug 2, 2005 9:55:49 GMT -5
I think you can guess the answer, Tbird.
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the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
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Post by the_way on Aug 2, 2005 10:40:06 GMT -5
_way--out of curiousity, what do you think of moneyball and sabrmetrics? Especially, the sabrmetrics' inability to find any statistical support for clutch hitting. I know where you stand when it comes to basketball, but baseball statistics have been shown to be a very reliable predictor, so I'm wondering if you've embraced the sabrmetric revolution or have completely disregarded it, ala Joe Morgan, or somewhere in between. TBird, I'm an Orioles fan. I've watched many a game for several years. I don't know anything about whatever you are talking about. However, I do know when I'ave WATCHED games, and SAW Eddie Murray produce when the game was on the line on many occasion. ON television and Memorial Stadium on East 33rd st. in Baltimore. The chants "Ed-die, Ed-die, Ed-die,..." put chills down your spine when you were actually there in the stadium and it is shaking. And then Eddie comes through with hit or double or a grand slam when the game is on the line. Now, I've WATCHED Raffy in those same situations, and time and time again, he fails to deliver by striking out, popping out, or grounding out.That separates an all-star from a superstar. A good player from a great player. Talk to any Orioles fan. I don't know how you derive that type of statistic. You don't need a computer or statistic to measure that. All you need is a set of eyes or set of ears or both, which is even better.
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hoyaboy1
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Post by hoyaboy1 on Aug 2, 2005 11:18:23 GMT -5
What your feelings on Murray having terrible World Series numbers, seeing as how he was so clutch?
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Aug 2, 2005 13:14:10 GMT -5
Oh, good, a sabremetrics reference brings hoyaboy back out. I can hardly wait to see where this leads. ;D
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hoyaboy1
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by hoyaboy1 on Aug 2, 2005 13:34:57 GMT -5
Won't lead to much. RDF had a little hope of enlightenment. There is no hope with the_way, but I just like to annoy him.
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Post by BeantownHoya on Aug 2, 2005 14:05:21 GMT -5
Way - You must have had your eyes closed for the 1979 World series. The Orioles went up 3 games to 1, but dropped the final 3, and the mighty Murray went hitless over the Series' final five games, including flying out with the tying runs on base in the eighth inning of Game 7.
Also as I am sure you can guess from "Beantown" I am a sox fan and did not get to see much of Murray, but I am an avid baseball fan and to portray Murray as a "fan favorite" is only half true. He was a very popular player unitl the Orioles went into a terrible 5-6 season slump in the 80's and Murray (incorrectly) was blamed by management and fans as one of the problems. He was actually booed at Memorial and then asked to be traded.
Comparisons are made between Palmeiro and Murray because of their longevity and similiar numbers. Murray never hit 40 HR's in a year(I admit I looked that up) and his impressive numbers can also be attriubted in some ways to his lengthy career.
That being said Murray was certainly a better ballplayer than Palmeiro. Murray in his yonger years was excellent defensively and the man was clutch in many aspects, you have to be to hit 19 grand slams. He batted well in the playoffs other than the WS where he did at least manage 4 HR's despite his terrible AVG. The only advantage I would give Palmeiro is that in his "later years" of his career he is/was a better hitter then Murray.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Aug 2, 2005 14:19:19 GMT -5
Way - You must have had your eyes closed for the 1979 World series. The Orioles went up 3 games to 1, but dropped the final 3, and the mighty Murray went hitless over the Series' final five games, including flying out with the tying runs on base in the eighth inning of Game 7. Also as I am sure you can guess from "Beantown" I am a sox fan and did not get to see much of Murray, but I am an avid baseball fan and to portray Murray as a "fan favorite" is only half true. He was a very popular player unitl the Orioles went into a terrible 5-6 season slump in the 80's and Murray (incorrectly) was blamed by management and fans as one of the problems. He was actually booed at Memorial and then asked to be traded. Comparisons are made between Palmeiro and Murray because of their longevity and similiar numbers. Murray never hit 40 HR's in a year(I admit I looked that up) and his impressive numbers can also be attriubted in some ways to his lengthy career. That being said Murray was certainly a better ballplayer than Palmeiro. Murray in his yonger years was excellent defensively and the man was clutch in many aspects, you have to be to hit 19 grand slams. He batted well in the playoffs other than the WS where he did at least manage 4 HR's despite his terrible AVG. The only advantage I would give Palmeiro is that in his "later years" of his career he is/was a better hitter then Murray. Thank you Beanhead, I mean Beantown. (Sorry, had to poke fun at a Red Sox fan. I'm an Oriole fan, remember. ;D ). Everything you said was accurate. Murray was blamed in his latter years with the O's, which was unfair. But in his heyday, Eddie was the man in Baltimore. I didn't say Eddie was Reggie Jackson, but he was clutch on numerous occasions. I can't say the same thing about Palmiero. I'm not disputing Palmiero's numbers at all. I think he should be in the hall of fame. But if I'm building a ball club for postseason, I would not want him on the roster.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Aug 2, 2005 19:50:13 GMT -5
Every player in major league baseball has been clutch on certain occasions.
But since you used the word "clutch," could you define it for me, the_way? What makes a player clutch?
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hoyaboy1
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by hoyaboy1 on Aug 2, 2005 23:12:09 GMT -5
SF, if you are bored, I could just jab you in the eye with rusty spoons instead.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Aug 3, 2005 10:43:26 GMT -5
SF, if you are bored, I could just jab you in the eye with rusty spoons instead. Oooh, that sounds like more fun!
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Aug 3, 2005 10:46:00 GMT -5
So it turns out that the steroid Raffy tested positive for is not found in dietary supplements. It's the same thing Ben Johnson tested positive for. Palmeiro is lying/cheating his way out of the Hall. www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8804402
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Post by AustinHoya03 on Aug 3, 2005 11:22:51 GMT -5
The article in the NYT, who broke this story, suggests that Winstrol has become the steroid of choice for baseball players because it is less detectable. www.nytimes.com/2005/08/03/sports/baseball/03steroids.html?You have to wonder why the guy who leaked this did so. It's quite possible that he watched Palmeiro lie in public, knew those lies could only be told convincingly (okay, semi-convincingly) as long as the test results were kept secret, and took it upon himself to set the record straight. So now Palmeiro has been caught red-handed twice. He did take steroids, and they didn't just find their way into his breakfast cereal. Being a liar, or lying to the fans, the media, and Congress doesn't necesarily keep you out of the HOF, but it does make you a schmuck. What lies will Palmiero tell next to get out of this jam? I'm half-expecting to turn on my TV today and see a press conference..."I am not really Rafael Palmiero. My name is Jorge Rodriguez. I assumed Mr. Palmiero's identity in 1993, right before I started shooting up with Jose Canseco. Rafael Palmiero never took steroids."
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Aug 5, 2005 9:46:59 GMT -5
They should throw Palmeiro under the bus. This is ridiculous that he lied in congress (and don't think he didn't).
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Post by StPetersburgHoya (Inactive) on Aug 13, 2005 23:00:27 GMT -5
Don't lie to congress - or even lie in a deposition that congress can get its hands on ... these people have nothing better to do with a war going on (and recently not going so well), social security needing to be reformed, mid-terms coming up, a supreme court nomination, and a faltering space program ... good luck Raffy - you are my least favority former Tulsa Driller (seriously the 1989 team had Raffy, Pudge, and Sammy Sosa - now that's a team).
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