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RDF
Jun 20, 2005 12:13:17 GMT -5
Post by aussiehoya on Jun 20, 2005 12:13:17 GMT -5
yo RDF, after our lengthy KG debates last season (not sure if you remember), I was looking forward to discussing this year's playoffs as they approached. i think we may be two of the 48 actual nba fans left in the nation.
i think the reason my participation faltered early (well, never even got started) was the fact that the boards have been separated. as such i only really check the bball board. but i'll begin to make more of an effort to drop in here every now and then.
what inspired me to write was Robert Horry's play last night. This guy has (in the parlance of our friend raftery) ONIONS! It really is absurd how dangerous this guy is. I can't imagine how many nba players view him as personally responsible for crushing their dreams. Did you catch that left-handed dunk? Some writers pointed out in the morning that Popovich should get a decent amount of credit for sticking with Horry after an abysmal first half. But I'd go one step further and say the Spur's GM should get some credit, for going out and getting THAT guy. But more than that, recognizing that sometimes in big situations the spurs were playing like a deer in headlights. The spurs GM must have seen that horry was available and thought "Gotcha".
Obviously also one needs to look at the emergence of Tim Duncan as an All-Time player. Duncan can do just about everything. I think his only achille's heel is his free throw shooting...
thoughts?
p.s. Disagree w/ you on Tirico becoming George Costanza. I think that's a little bit of a stretch.
p.p.s. How do you like the Suns next year? I feel like whatever changes they come up with, those guys cannot handle a San Antonio / Detroit - rough-u-up style of play over seven games. They are exciting to watch though...
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the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
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RDF
Jun 20, 2005 12:29:15 GMT -5
Post by the_way on Jun 20, 2005 12:29:15 GMT -5
Actually, Popovich is the GM for the Spurs. He was the GM there first, and then decided to coach the team. He works RC Buford (I believe that is his name), but Pop has ultimate say on who he brings in or signs to the team.
Also, Horry's daughter has a medical condition (She was born without part of her first chromosome) that requires doctor care,and the best doctors are in Houston,Texas where they currently live. So Horry wanted to go to a team Texas so he could remain close. LA was too far for him to travel back and forth.
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RDF
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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RDF
Jun 20, 2005 12:42:33 GMT -5
Post by RDF on Jun 20, 2005 12:42:33 GMT -5
Aussie--good to hear from you and of course I remember our debates, but you were a good sport and brought some good discussion and barbs, so always good to talk hoops with you. ;D I have posted on this board because of the rules and as you can see we've had a few discussions going on and glad you wanted to join in. Horry is just fun to watch and when you think of him with those Rocket team and they also had Sam Cassell---no wonder the won Back to Back--of course that Olajuwon guy was good too, Point being that two of the most clutch shooting players in NBA history sure are nice to have to kick out to as compared to say John Starks and Anthony Mason?? Still see my anger at the Knicks jump out time to time, but I'll drop it--for now Anyways, I see Phoenix having trouble as long as they don't play defense--you can't win a Title that way and you said it perfectly--there will come a series where you have to grind it out and brawl and that style can be neutralized-it's like a great offensive football team who faces a great defense--the defense will win in end. I love Suns style but they need to trade Shawn Marion and get more depth on their team to help. I'm not a Marion fan--he's someone who really disappears when games get tougher--he as awful in the Olympics and in the Playoffs against the lone really good team he faced, he was AWOL. Last night's game is what great NBA basketball is about--guys making shots and stepping up. The last 5 minutes plus OT so the last 10 minutes (my degree's paying off with my math skills) really were great basketball minus Duncan's gag job at the FT line. He was atrocious and really gagged. Bill Simmons on ESPN's Page 2 said it best about how Duncan stunk and Horry bailed him out. Duncan's been clutch before and has the rings, but he's been frustrated by Pistons in this series and not used to being contested and fought hard for an entire game. I still expect him to hang a big night on Pistons in Game 6 and Spurs to win tomorrow night, but man watching Horry never gets old. I love seeing guys thrive under pressure and craving the opportunity. Make/Miss, it's what sports is about. Aussie, just wanted to ask you what you thought of Wolves hiring Dwayne Casey?? I'm not a fan of move but I think McHale needs to go too, so this comes as no shock. It'll be interesting to see how this works out, but willing to give him a chance--but just have to sat when I hear his name, I still think of his "Fed Ex" to Chris Mills during the Eddie Sutton UK days. We've got a good discussion going on in the NBA Finals thread if you want to join in and good to hear from you.
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RDF
Jun 21, 2005 11:46:56 GMT -5
Post by aussiehoya on Jun 21, 2005 11:46:56 GMT -5
completely agree with you on Cassell. i watched an "inside the nba" where Kenny the jet was explaining how during the finals, Sam would run into the locker room screaming "I'm gonna be famous tonight!". You also have to love Sam's nut-dance he did down the court when he made big shots.
On the issue of Dwane Casey: - Yes, the $1000 envelope worries you, but he's probably put that behind him. - he's been coaching on a team that overachieved which is at least a good sign. - Agreed, McHale looked like he would rather be eating over-sized live insects on Fear Factor than coach the t-wolves. obviously he couldn't coach the team. - Taking a step back, I actually think that it was also Flip's time to go. When you let a Cassell & a Sprewell (whether justified or not) take control of your locker room, you have become ineffective as a coach. He had a decent run, but with the talent he had, he should have got FAR deeper... it is the coach's RESPONSIBILITY to HARNESS and MAXIMIZE the talent in my opinion... - This point may sound a little superficial but I like the fact that Casey is both young and black. This gives him a far better shot at relating to the players than a middle-aged white man. At the very least it will give the players something completely fresh and new to contend with. Kinda harkens me back to around a month ago when the 6ers hired cheeks and Iverson made some hilarious quote about wanting to go back and "kiss him on his mouth". I want to find that exact quote coz it really is priceless. - Overall you've just got to take a wait-and-see attitude with this kind of hire because obviously it's not a slam dunk.
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RDF
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Jun 21, 2005 12:11:53 GMT -5
Post by RDF on Jun 21, 2005 12:11:53 GMT -5
I think Cassell's "nut dance" was hilarious and that was one of the funniest things in last year's playoffs.
I think Flip Saunders was railroaded by McHale and Front Office. You don't have guys like Cassell and Sprewell and NOT realize they will play well in contract years and if you don't sign them to extensions they'll take "vacations" on you. Front Office in Minnesota acts like they are above the usual business in NBA and with guys like Sam and Sprewell they tend to "breakdown" when things don't go their way. That's on McHale for not working something out--either with them or by trading them. Team also needed a shakeup and bought into the Trenton Hassell hype--that signing was TERRIBLE and played Mark Madsen way too much early in year. McHale thinks he's the players "friend" and looks for projects and they all fail--Joe Smith, Rasho, and now Olowakandi. Add to this list Ndudi Ebi who I witnessed last night in Howard Pulley League (Twin Cities Kenner League) and to say he was a SCUMBALL would put it mildly. Ebi:
1. Played with ZERO effort 2. Screamed at Teammates 3. Screamed at Opponents 4. Screamed at Referees 5. Fouled Out, Got a Technical Foul with 8 minutes left in game, changed his clothes and proceeded to berate Rene Pulley--who is in charge of league, and his "Coach" and continued to bash refs.
This came off being able to do nothing/showing no effort or heart against College/Former College players who were average at best. His behavior and performance was so bad he was being booed/chastised by the crowd and many wondered if he was "on something". Needless to say he was asked to change his behavior or he wont' be welcome back--next game is tomorrow night and I'll be there as my friend plays for his team. I'll have a report on what happens tomorrow.
I'll give Casey a shot, he's paid his dues and everyone deserves a chance/two to show what they can do when running the show.
As a Sixers fan, AI might be happy enough to "kiss Billy King on the mouth for bringing back Mo" but I want to PUKE. Cheeks is NOT the answer and people are too caught up in if players "like the coach". It's more important if they WIN and are BETTER because of coach, not if they like him or not. That's what's wrong with many organizations. For all the bickering and bullcrap on Lakers--they went to 4 Finals in 5 years with Phil Jackson, Kobe, and Shaq. That is success which didn't have a "happy atmosphere". Detroit doesn't "like" Larry Brown--they respect him but few like the man when he is coaching them. Pat Riley wasn't liked. Red Aurbauch wasn't liked by everyone on his team, it's about WINNING and RESULTS--not if you like someone.
That's why I'm Editeded that O'Brien was let go. He was getting best out of AI and team improved to win and lost to Defending World Champs in a series they were one missed FT from being 2-2 in First Round. I am NOT saying they'd have won this series, but that's not a bad performance from a coach in his first year if you ask me. With Cheeks being a "Philly Guy" the lovefest and excuses will last a while, but we'll see if this works, I think it won't and it'll be a failure but then again any team with Chris Webber is destined to FAIL.
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RDF
Jun 21, 2005 13:54:10 GMT -5
Post by aussiehoya on Jun 21, 2005 13:54:10 GMT -5
COMPLETELY agree with your take on the 6ers. Although it seemed as though O'Brien made as many moves to get himself fired as management did if you read between the lines. Also add the point that King never really even wanted O'Brien in the first place.. You are right that he was getting the best out of A.I., but at the same time did he even spend 10 mins trying to work Webber into the gameplan? It seemed as though it was team + Webber out there when he was traded. now i know a man needs time to gel with his team so I won't work that point too hard.
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RDF
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Jun 22, 2005 23:18:59 GMT -5
Post by RDF on Jun 22, 2005 23:18:59 GMT -5
Quick update for you Aussie--Ndudi Ebi has been kicked out of the Summer Pro Am league--what a moron this guy is. Goes down as one of the all timers in terms of headcases and a perfect example for NBA to use in terms of why kids need to go to college out of HS. He was getting his butt lit up by some D-3 guys and instead of playing harder, he quit. What a butthead this kid is and he was asked not to return to League.
Trenton Hassell is playing with John Thomas on a team in the league and I'll see them next week.
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the_way
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Jun 23, 2005 8:30:56 GMT -5
Post by the_way on Jun 23, 2005 8:30:56 GMT -5
- This point may sound a little superficial but I like the fact that Casey is both young and black. This gives him a far better shot at relating to the players than a middle-aged white man. At the very least it will give the players something completely fresh and new to contend with. Kinda harkens me back to around a month ago when the 6ers hired cheeks and Iverson made some hilarious quote about wanting to go back and "kiss him on his mouth". I want to find that exact quote coz it really is priceless. - Overall you've just got to take a wait-and-see attitude with this kind of hire because obviously it's not a slam dunk. I hear you, but the fact that Casey is young and black has nothing to do with relating to players. This doesn't give him a better shot of communicating with players better than a middle-aged white man. If you can communicate you can communicate. Aside from that, the coach was never the problem with Minnesota to begin with. Outside of Phil Jackson and Larry Brown, you arguably are not going to find a better coach than Flip Saunders. First ,the issue with Joe Smith and the Timberwolves losing first-round draft picks for something like ten years. You don't go under the table, Kevin Mchale, period. But for Joe Smith!! That is criminal. But the biggest problem the Wolves have and the reason they will never get further is the same reason the Mavericks won't get further: their so-called best player or franchise player is their biggest liability. KG is a good player. But you can't expect him to carry your team and he can't be your go-to-guy. KG is one of the most physically talented players in this league. He is a freak of nature. But, he brings no intangibles to the table. That is the difference between a champion and an also-ran. You need other guys who exert leadership with their play on and off the court for the Wolves to be better. Problem is with no draft picks and all the money going to KG, where can you upgrade? So for the Wolves to do anything in the playoffs, KG HAS to be something he isn't and never will be: A franchise player. Plus, KG is not really a power-forward. He really doesn't have a position. The things you typically want from your power forward like banging down load, posting-up, getting key offensive and defensive rebounds when it matters most, that is not what KG does. KG likes being versatile. He likes the fact he can dribble, and shoot 3's and move like a wing-player. He is more enamoured with being Mr. Versatility or Mr. January than being Mr. May or Mr. June. He is not as bad as Chris Webber, because Webber is allergic to anything going on inside the paint. But KG is hurting that franchise. They only went far into the playoffs when they had guys who had gumption on the team and in the clutch, Cassell and Sprewell. Unfortunately, Casey won't last long. Its a dead-end job. As long as KG is sucking the franchise fianancially and not providing a justification for it by playing like a franchise player, its a lots cause.
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RDF
Jun 23, 2005 13:50:43 GMT -5
Post by aussiehoya on Jun 23, 2005 13:50:43 GMT -5
RDF - this kind of unreported news is what the age limit should reduce (a least a little). i wouldn't call ndudi an all-timer head case just yet... i mean - spree and artest are still in the league.
The-Way - you may or may not know my stance on KG, but I stick by him as a legitimate franchise player. Also the fact that you're ranking Flip Saunders as the third best coach in the league is suspect... These coaches are all considered to be better than flip, no contest: George Karl, Gregg Popovich, Rick Carlisle, The Czar Mike Fratello, Jerry Sloan
Without getting into it in too much depth, I essentially put more of the blame on flip than anyone else. McHale assembled a win-now team and it was Flip's responsibility to put this group over the top. This year obviously the contract arguments and KG's injury came into play, so I'm mainly referring to last year. The arguments against Garnett seem to be more smoke and mirrors than anything else. It's a given he'll put up his numbers and he's made people around him better and he's getting better on top of that, but the naysayers claim that he doesn't have the "intangibles". I have to disagree.
I just can't help but have a VERY strong feeling that if the Wolves had had a driven, kickass coach that they would've at least beaten the hobbled lakers in the western conference finals... There's no way u can really put that series loss on KG in my honest opinion.
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RDF
Jun 23, 2005 13:52:43 GMT -5
Post by aussiehoya on Jun 23, 2005 13:52:43 GMT -5
agreed tho, that at the moment casey has taken a dead-end job. but you can't really work out how much of a dead-end it is until all the offseason moves/signings have been made. feel me?
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the_way
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Jun 23, 2005 14:29:47 GMT -5
Post by the_way on Jun 23, 2005 14:29:47 GMT -5
You are right in one sense, aussie, I forgot about Sloan, Carlisle, Karl. But would you agree that Saunders is one of the better coaches in this league. You put Duncan on Minnesota and KG on San Antonio, and you'll see how many wins and championships Poppovich has compared to Flip.It would be a different picture. For me, I think Carlisle is one the best out there not named Sloan, Brown, or Jackson. But I do think Flip is one of the better coaches in this league. You can't coach mental toughness, you can't coach leadership. You can't coach heart. You can't coach gumption. You can't coach someone to have cahones. When your "franchise" player lacks these things, you are handicapped and first-round exits should be the norm for a good coach unless you surround that "franchise" player with players who aren't afraid to get Chancey Billips-like or Robert-Horry-like in the playoffs during the 4th quarter. That is what you saw a year ago, except for game 7 against Sacramento when KG stepped up for the first time in his 22-million-dollar-a-year-life. You are not going to get that much out of a KG "led" team. Minnesota's superman is also their kryptonite.
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