Rankings matter(?)

[StPetersburgHoya (Inactive)]

Since some want to have this conversation on the basketball board, I thought I'd give them the chance to discuss it here.

My contention is that academic rankings matter, generally. That is to say, going to school number 22 as opposed to school number 20 doesn't matter that much, but going to a Top 25 or Top 50 school does. Does it mean that you are guaranteed success if you go to one of those school? No. Clearly, there are tons of people who do well after going to schools that aren't ranked highly. But is that road easier? Probably not. If you want to go to a good grad school, going to a top undergrad school matters. Sure, you could go to a lower ranked school and do very well there and end up at the same grad school - but you'd have to get a better GPA or grad school exam score to do it.

I'm not saying that local schools with less noted academic profiles don't serve a purpose. As college education becomes the norm - they are playing an increasingly important role.

But, its very hypocritical for people on this board to say that rankings don't matter. Clearly they mattered to us at some point. Rankings had to play a decision in where we applied to college. The schools that GU competes with for admits are also highly ranked and highly selective. Rankings matter, if anything, because they matter to high school students every year.

[hoyatables]

In the real world, rankings matter only so far as the individual wants to assign weight to them and, specifically, the extent to which individuals choose to use ranking as a proxy for prestige and/or academic ability.

Rankings do have a more practical impact when it comes to the immediate post-degree job and/or grad school search. They are not the only factor, but they are definitely a strong factor that can help. And the weight of the ranking varies based on the type of school and post-degree effort. For example, attending a highly ranked law school offers a tremendous advantage when it comes to competition for the traditional "big firm" associate position. Attending a highly ranked undergraduate university matters far less in a general post-degree job search, where academic performance, experience, and other characteristics will be weighed just as heavily.

Also, to limit the universe of "ranked" schools that matter more than other schools to the Top 50 is extraordinarily short-sighted. For one, you ignore all of the wonderful small liberal arts colleges that don't get ranked in the traditional USNWR Top 25/Top 50 list and are as competitive as a Georgetown or Duke. For another, many schools that may not be "ranked" offer an experience that could be far more appropriate for certain students and enable them to be more successful that they would be at a college they chose simply because it is on the list. There are so many wonderful, challenging, and rewarding colleges and universities available to attend in the United States, and high school students would do well to evaluate a broad sample based on the unique characteristics that best suit them, rather than limit themselves to a tiny sample derived from one editoral board's alleged objective list.

I do think that the graduate school experience is slightly different, depending on the program. Some doctors and lawyers will tell you the med school or law school, and the corresponding hospital or firm placement it enables, makes all the difference in the world. This assumes, of course, that it is valuable to get placed at a premier firm or hospital after graduation. Others will tell you it doesn't matter, especially if your sights are not set on the premier medical and legal institutions.

Rankings certainly will assist certain job and graduate school searches. The success of many individuals in spite of attending a lower ranked institution--or, more likely, because they attended the institution that was right for them--certainly suggests that rankings should not be offered as a proxy for intelligence or success.

[Jack]

I wish I could remember exactly when the article came out, but Malcolm Gladwell wrote a very thoughtful piece in the New Yorker a few years back about colleges (I believe centered around a review of "The Chosen"- a book about admissions processes at Harvard, Yale, and Princeton) and their actual impact on their graduates. It had many interesting points and nuances, but the one that stuck with me was an analogy that went something like this: Elite colleges are less like the Marines, taking raw material and training them to be something much better, than they are like a modeling school, selecting the most beautiful and confirming their status but not necessarily doing much for their graduates that they could not have done on their own.

Edit: Found the article- www.newyorker.com/archive/2005/10/10/051010crat_atlarge

[theexorcist]

I originally responded, so I'll take this up. I apologize since this sort of rambles.

Rankings don't matter. The experience matters. This is a critical difference.

I wanted to go to Georgetown and wasn't accepted. I went to the University of Delaware, with a goal of transferring my sophomore year.

Delaware never ranks on the top 25 schools (I think that they make the top 100). Delaware did, however, have a top-rank chemical engineering program. No one who wanted to be a chemical engineer would go to Georgetown rather than Delaware in terms of prep. Just like no one who wanted to be in IR stuff would do Georgetown rather than Delaware.

Except that it might not be true. One of the classes I took at Delaware was an Honors thing on Europe. One of my classmates (whom I knew from middle school) stayed, majored in IR, and was named a Rhodes scholar.

What was different for me at the two schools? At both, I was a freak (I'm always a freak, but that's another story). At Delaware, I was the IR guy, and quickly did lots of stuff that other people at GU would have beaten me out at. At Georgetown, I was the computer guy (people at Delaware were so far beyond me that it wasn't funny) and developed a niche there.

Almost every school has its own "Joe and Jane Hoya". Evergreen State is famous for being a hippie liberal enclave. Do you do well with them or in conflict with them? West Point is an awful choice for some people, though it's a great school. Do you like frats or can't stand cold weather? Some students have won the mayorship in their school's towns - fat chance in D.C.

Georgetown's experience is unique. It takes lots of very smart people who are internationally focused and it puts them in one of the best and most powerful cities in the world. While I found the classes hit or miss, I found many of the student-initiated activities - those 3AM conversations - what I wanted from college.

Me going to Georgetown opened a few doors a little wider - it gives you a little bit of credibility. But that cred dies pretty quick if you're not competent or if you think that something is beneath you.

As for the selective graduate schools part - eh. If you didn't succeed at West Virginia Wesleyan, join the work force. If you put together a body of successful work there, you can reapply to Harvard with a good chance of success.

[theexorcist]

Jack:

One of the schools I was trying to fit into my comments was Xavier of Louisiana, which is famous for taking students who aren't ready for college-level math and science and churning out huge numbers of pharmacy grads and med school acceptees.

Apparently, they're only slightly less rigorous than the Marines. Nuns are tough.

[Boz]

All I know is, if I hadn't gone to Georgetown, I never would have been able to attain the prestigious position I held for two years at a valet outside of 1789.

...well, unless I was in the Army and assigned to the Old Guard at Ft. Myer, that is.

;D

(OK, actually, this is not entirely a joke. Working at 1789 while I was in grad school did lead to my first real job as a writer and editor, so I guess it was good for something; plus, we got to eat rack of lamb and smashed potatoes nearly every night and drink for free at The Tombs....wait. What do you mean everybody drinks for free at The Tombs??)