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France
Nov 9, 2005 13:33:21 GMT -5
Post by AustinHoya03 on Nov 9, 2005 13:33:21 GMT -5
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hoyahoyasaxa
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
Sead Dizdarezvic doesn't write term papers. The words rearrange themselves out of fear.
Posts: 464
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France
Nov 9, 2005 13:58:58 GMT -5
Post by hoyahoyasaxa on Nov 9, 2005 13:58:58 GMT -5
I studied in France and stayed with the nicest family-- except for the fact that they really did not like immigrants or the idea that residents of former French colonies would come to France. Their attitude bordered on disgust for these immigrants. I wasn't that surprised that something like this happened (though I didn't think it would be this vitriolic).
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France
Nov 9, 2005 18:14:29 GMT -5
Post by StPetersburgHoya (Inactive) on Nov 9, 2005 18:14:29 GMT -5
I'm sorry but from what I'm heard from most people's home-stays when studying in Europe it doesn't seem like many Europeans would openly profess to liking immigrants.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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France
Nov 9, 2005 21:30:54 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2005 21:30:54 GMT -5
I'm sorry but from what I'm heard from most people's home-stays when studying in Europe it doesn't seem like many Europeans would openly profess to liking immigrants. Which is too bad... Europeans are really going to need them. On a recent "Real Sports With Bryant Gumble" they did a piece on racism in European football/soccer, and how bananas are thrown at black players, etc. But at one point they made the comment that economists predict that the entire continent of Europe is going to have to take on something like 50 million new workers over the next 20 years or so to compensate for the loss of Europe's aging population. All predicted, of course, that immigrants make up the bulk of this number.
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thebin
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,848
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France
Nov 10, 2005 18:42:47 GMT -5
Post by thebin on Nov 10, 2005 18:42:47 GMT -5
The imminent death of what we know as Europe is going to be the story of this century. The combination of their bloated entitlement state, their low reproduction rates among natives, and hostility to immigration combined with a less assimilated form of immigration culture is killing off Europe, not very slowly, but oh so surely. It is no myth, its not even exaggeration, Europe (and frankly Japan) are dying and there is very little hope they can turn it around. The economic growth gows first (it largely went already), then will go the uber-sophisticated entitlements (such as free third rate health care and mandatory 6 week vacations with 35 hour work weeks when employment is double digit) and finally will go the peace and stability. Count on it.
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EasyEd
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 7,272
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France
Nov 10, 2005 19:13:25 GMT -5
Post by EasyEd on Nov 10, 2005 19:13:25 GMT -5
Why is it so hard for some people to recognize that the torment in France, and soon elsewhere are at least partially due to two items: first, it's Muslims that are rioting, not merely youth; and, second, the decline in Christianity in the area. PC makes it hard for some people to say that.
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SoCalHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
No es bueno
Posts: 1,313
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France
Nov 10, 2005 20:43:46 GMT -5
Post by SoCalHoya on Nov 10, 2005 20:43:46 GMT -5
Correction, it's poor immigrants rioting. Poor people in France have a history of rioting. Remember the French Revolution?
We're not too far from that here in the states.
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DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,777
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France
Nov 10, 2005 21:24:43 GMT -5
Post by DFW HOYA on Nov 10, 2005 21:24:43 GMT -5
We're not too far from that here in the states. No, there is a difference. General strikes and civil disobedience have a long history in western European society but do not in the U.S. When was the last general strike in this country? Thre are poor and struggling people all around the USA, especially in places the media doesn't always follow up on, such as the Mississippi Delta and the colonias, places off the beaten path where per capita incomes are as low as $6,000 a year (that's $3.00 an hour). Despite this, the promise of upward mobility keeps Americans from giving up all hope, even if many will not achieve it. In France, there has been a concerted effort not to provide the second generation Algerians and the more recent Arab populations the upward mobility afforded to French natives. Unemployment is 40% in many areas. To many French, this unfamiliar underclass isn't worthy of being one of their fellow citizens; it also doesn't help when the likes of Jean Marie LePen publicly advocates deporting naturalized (read= Arab) citizens. And this note from the Lincoln (NE) Journal Star: "As the suburbs of Paris burned in recent days, conservatives took a certain relish in repeating the words of former French President Francois Mitterrand commenting on racial violence in Los Angeles in 1992. “There can be no comparison between us and what happens elsewhere, for France is the country where the level of social protection is the highest,” Mitterrand said. In contrast with France, Mitterrand said, the United States is a “conservative” nation with an “absence of social legislation.”
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France
Nov 10, 2005 21:34:20 GMT -5
Post by StPetersburgHoya (Inactive) on Nov 10, 2005 21:34:20 GMT -5
I honestly think, ed, that its hard to say that this problem is related to religion. The main issues that seem to be at play here are demographic and economic. Its hard to really relate the rioting in France to religion - yes the protestors are largely believers in Islam, but they aren't rioting over issues related to religion and the reaction of the French, Belgians, and other Europeans is due to the fact that the protestors are foreigners and not Muslims.
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EasyEd
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 7,272
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France
Nov 11, 2005 8:47:12 GMT -5
Post by EasyEd on Nov 11, 2005 8:47:12 GMT -5
St. Pete - I totally disagree that it's not at least partly due to religion. The press seems to be going overboard in stressing it's "youth", not Islamic youth, and it's having an effect on the perception in this country. In these conclaves in France where many Muslims reside, the Imans are preaching that Western values (like sex) are totally incompatible with Islam and must be resisted at all costs. The West needs to wake up and recognize that radical Islamism is alive and well in France and elsewhere and we must acknowledge that before we can take the necessary steps to confront it. To put our heads in the sand and pretend that religion is not a key part of the problem is a blueprint for defeat. As the Islamic population continues to grow in Europe, I think we're facing an all-out war in the future.
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SoCalHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
No es bueno
Posts: 1,313
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France
Nov 11, 2005 10:00:12 GMT -5
Post by SoCalHoya on Nov 11, 2005 10:00:12 GMT -5
I don't understand why one would equate French riots with US strikes. But as someone from SoCal, I clearly remember the LA riots. Though many opportunists joined in later, at its inception it certainly didn't look like the poor people held the "promise of upward mobility" keeping them from giving up all hope. There are folks in south central LA that have never had the opportunity to even see hope, much less give it up. And riot they did. And they stole. And they murdered.
Having lived in Paris for some time, I have know some people from "les banlieue." They are almost all recent immigrants or children of recent immigrants. They do face horrible unemployment and are often dismissed completely by the establishment due to race/citizenship. But I see far worse here in the states. New Orleans. Detroit (which also had a riot problem, lest we forget). South Central LA. These are areas we've neglected for decades now. And having lived in two of those places, I can tell you it wouldn't take much to set off riots in those places again.
Most Western societies have groups that do not share equally in the promise and hope of these (usually) liberal democracies. For the French, it's the North and West Africans. The Germans have the Turks (and now some southeast Asians, and Jews in the past, of course). The Italians mirror the French. The British have Bangladeshis, some Pakistanis, Nigerians, etc. But here in the US we outpace our Western allies. We have been practicing discrimination so long now that we have it down to a science. Our list of downtrodden is long and horrifying.
All of these western countries, overall, are marvelous places to live. But I find it troubling for members of any country, including French and Americans, to point fingers at other western societies with regard to race/ethnic relations. We all have too troubling a past to do that with a clear conscience.
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SirSaxa
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 747
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France
Nov 11, 2005 10:52:29 GMT -5
Post by SirSaxa on Nov 11, 2005 10:52:29 GMT -5
SoCal... you made a good case in your points. Well done.
However, I also agree with part of what EasyEd wrote as well. I don't think the decline of christianity and catholicism is so important in this conflict. But I do think the Islamic factor is a critical one. The Muslim community in France is growing and is nowhere close to being integrated into the culture. And this is not isolated to France. It should be apparent to everyone that there is a huge and growing problem in the Islamic world. For a long list of reasons, many self-inflicted, the Muslim world has fallen well behind the rest of the world and they resent it. Fundamentalists are attempting (quite successfully) to use religion to rally the population in an "us against them" strategy that imparts no responsibilty for the current state of affairs to themselves, but rather blames the West, Christians, Jews... and even progressive muslims for their plight.
This IS a very dangerous global phenomenon. And it is this issue which must be addressed -- on a global level.
It will take a concerted effort from the global community acting together to deal with this situation. It is not going to be won on a battlefield -- though it is quite likely those battles will continue and grow. This is a battle of ideas, ideals, education and opportunity.
How do we - the US - lead the world to help integrate the Muslim countries, without insulting their Muslim faith. How can we develop positive relationships with moderate Islamists? And how can we defuse their distrust and anger against us, and France and the rest of the world?
Ed could be right that we will face an all-out war in the future. GLobalization is forcing everyone together and creating enormous tensions. Not everyone benefits equally, or at all. We ignore that at our own risk.
As the richest and most powerful nation, we have a responsibility to lead -- not dictate to - the world in developing solutions based on input from and participation by all sides.
I wonder what the SFS is doing in studying this crucial issue. Perhaps someone knows?
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SoCalHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
No es bueno
Posts: 1,313
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France
Nov 11, 2005 14:08:29 GMT -5
Post by SoCalHoya on Nov 11, 2005 14:08:29 GMT -5
Well, I studied it in the SFS and we studied this extensively. There was a book I read while on the Hilltop called "Jihad vs. McWorld", a good read for the subject of globalization versus extremism (if it wasn't already obvious from the title), if anyone is interested. I agree that Islam has something to do with this, but I don't think it's anything in particular about the values/faith of Islam, but more with the state of affairs in predominantly Muslim countries and with their emigrants. Remember, 800 years ago the Muslim world was far ahead technologically, philosophically and financially than the western world. We had a renaissance, a secularist movement to divorce religion and government (though it seems we are sliding backward now here in the States...). They may go through their own Renaissance soon enough, find that theocracies may not be the best form of gov't, but my hope is that we can help them do that rather than hinder. (our current efforts, even with the best of intentions, do not seem to be helping) And yes, I know many will say "but Islam/the Koran state that the religion must rule the people, even governmentally." To that I insist you read more about the subject and remember that many used Biblical references to maintain the same in the west. Things are not as simple as they are presented on the news (especially Fox). Anyhow, many of these rioters do have the Muslim thing in common. So, some opportunists are able to inflame the group using anti-Western "pro-Muslim" (but not really because that's not what Islam is about) rhetoric to organize and galvanize the group of young Muslim men. But if you look to the city and financial centers, where many young Muslim men are in University, or at a good job, you will see that the rhetoric does not affect them much. They do have hope, they are more able to reject the temptations of the group-think. What is most important, and sad, is that the most vulnerable people (the poor, rejected) are the ones most easily attracted to the BS rhetoric. The same thing happens here where you have groups of poor and unemployed focusing on a certain issue to rationalize (but not justify) crime, riots, chaos. Remember New Orleans? Buenos Aires? I am most certain that the SFS is on top of this more now than ever, especially now with the SFS-Q campus. If there is any hope that tensions between the west and the middle east subside, I think Georgetown will lead the way. I think I've rambled long enough.
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vagrant
Century (over 100 posts)
Posts: 182
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France
Nov 11, 2005 18:52:33 GMT -5
Post by vagrant on Nov 11, 2005 18:52:33 GMT -5
As someone who came to this country as an immigrant fleeing a Communist regime, I can personally tell you that the dream of success was not only a common thread in my community: but also bolstered by the individual success stories. With loans [all paid back], I was able to come to Georgetown both Coll and Med. Presently I practice in SoCal where a lot of my patients are immigrant [read illegal]. Many years after my experience, I know that dream is still alive, and amidst the bickering, you will find great hope. The French immigrants feel hopeless, ours "have a dream," as a great American once said. Just an opinion from the park bench.
-vagrant
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hoya4ever
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 805
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France
Nov 12, 2005 8:51:14 GMT -5
Post by hoya4ever on Nov 12, 2005 8:51:14 GMT -5
I am European, born and raised, but so American in my ways that most people don't even know unless I tell them. Having lived in Europe for fifteen years I can say with certainty that it's not about race, it is about religion. In Europe there is this system where immigrants are almost trained to feel lesser, and they do almost nothing to combat this unless it comes to religion. While there, my parents did immigrate to another country, where this was painfully obvious. However, the situation in France is a little different. France opened the doors to the immigrant population as a way to make up for rulling their countries for a long time. But, many more people started showing up, people that France did not count on. The new generation, or at lest those aged no more than 40, feel that they shouldn't have to keep being nice, since it was not their doing that caused these people to suffer. They are asking for tougher treatment as a way to deter more immigrants and to drive the current immigrants out. They are also trying to close the borders but some humanitarian organizations are threatening them. Most African immigrants are basically viewed as rude, medling guests that have overstayed and need to go immediately.
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hoya4ever
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 805
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France
Nov 12, 2005 9:08:08 GMT -5
Post by hoya4ever on Nov 12, 2005 9:08:08 GMT -5
As for the employment and economic growth problems, Europe will need 50 million only if the current young adults do not take over... In many parts of Europe there are very high unemployment rates, and I am talking about natives here. The aging population is as problematic there as it is here. However, Europe cannot be further away from a complete breakdown. There are just too many countries that support the general economy for that to happen. England and Germany control everything, on the land, with Cyprus controlling almost all shipping (you wouldn't think a small country at the end of the Med. could control it, but look at where all the contracts are made, and who owns the ships. Then look at the exchange rate for the Cyprian pound...) Anyway, Europe has always been like this. Because of the many small countries, one cannot get a sense of a real economic state. Look at the countries that are not that major. Greece is a small little thing, always in the very bottom tier of the EU but their citizens have a great quality of life. Italy is not doing very well when looking at exchange rates, but their quality of life is again high. The Central and west Balkans, I agree are a problem, but are mainly hindered by the fact that most of the people are leaving because of "a better life" in the Statyes or anywhere else. They do not realize that you have to work much harder for the same lifestyle, anywhere else.
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SirSaxa
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 747
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France
Nov 13, 2005 11:09:18 GMT -5
Post by SirSaxa on Nov 13, 2005 11:09:18 GMT -5
We have been practicing discrimination so long now that we have it down to a science. Our list of downtrodden is long and horrifying. SoCal, I appreciate the many insightful points you made and your update on the SFS. However, there is one particular item (above) that I do wish to comment on. While the statement above is true, we also have a list of downtrodden who have overcome discrimination. Irish Italians Jews Chinese Japanese all come to mind. Each one of these groups was on the low rung of the ladder at one point. As for African-Americans, there is still a long way to go. but, a lot of progress has been made in the last 50 years. I am not suggesting it is enough, but it is considerable. Perhaps the difference in our country is that everyone (except for the small percentage of the country comrpised of Native-Americans) came from somewhere else. Unlike France, where everyone was French for eons. Same with most countries in the world. The homogeneity of the pre-established population makes integration of foreigners that much more difficult.
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