HOYA: Is Georgetown Catholic Anymore?

[DFW HOYA]

Interesting article below on an under-discussed topic.

I think that Georgetown takes a lot pride in its inclusive, social-justice message, but it runs up against those who would see Georgetown as a leader in Catholic (as oppsoed to simply Jesuit) higher education. Some of this is owing to a different student body, some to its desire to keep up with an academic elites that has looked down on Catholic education in the past. Maintaining a balance continues to prove elusive to the University.

Georgetown is not Steubenville. But it's not Marist, either.

www.thehoya.com/viewpoint/012505/view6.cfm

[WilsonBlvdHoya]

Very bad example/column, DFW. The author states that "By encouraging inter-religious discourse, deep elements of our Catholic identity have been lost." This is the typically fallacious reasoning of the hardcore doctrinaire Catholic right that assumes ecumenical engagement=doctrinal dilution.

Ironically enough, the author goes on to contradict herself with the following paragraph: "A more thorough understanding and study of Catholicism may actually lead to an openness to the expression of religious identity, Catholic and otherwise. People who have a strong sense of faith are usually not offended by the display of other religions, but benefited by exposure to them." She couldn't
have articulated GU's principles more succinctly or cogently and those principles drove GU to hire the first rabbi and imam at a Catholic university in the US.

Unfortunately, by the tone and false insinuations of some of her bald-faced assertions she belies those principles. What's particularly offensive is her polemic at the end which reads, Jesuit, yes, Catholic, no; a stereotypical prejudice of those who see Jesuit (read, worldly) conspiracies behind any attempt at a rational theology which somehow engages with the world....

[thebin]

The part about GU re-doing Dahlgren to look more like a Protestant meeting house irked me a bit- can anyone veryify that? Because if there is one thing the Roman church does better, its asthetics!

[DFW HOYA]

The complaint about the remodeling of Dahlgren has been out there for years. I don't buy the claim that it was changed to be more Protestant, but I have read some claims in the past that Campus Ministry wanted a more multi-purpose religious facility (no sports pun intended).

[TrueHoyaBlue]

From what I understand, the remodel of Dahlgren's interior coincided with recommendations of the Second Vatican Council, which is the underlying target of many who share Ms. Noronha's complaints about Georgetown's lack of Catholic identity.

[DFW HOYA]

TrueHoyaBlue said:

From what I understand, the remodel of Dahlgren's interior coincided with recommendations of the Second Vatican Council, which is the underlying target of many who share Ms. Noronha's complaints about Georgetown's lack of Catholic identity.

I think there are some posters who can shed some mroe light on this but many Vatican II discussions on liturgical space involved the altar. Most churches did not take out their pews, for example, as Dahlgren did.

Undated Dahlgren photo:
www.library.georgetown.edu/dept/speccoll/i/page/dahlin-1.jpg


It's also unfair to lump in all students who are, for lack of a better term, Catholic protagonists, with the anti-Vatican II crowd (which are generally 1-2 generations their elder), nor are they always of a conservative political bent. My original point, lost in the interim, was that Georgetown seems to walk an uneasy path between a Steubenville (where faculty and trustees take an oath of fidelity to the Church) and a Marist (which now considers itself an "independent" school without formal religious ties) and this is where that student's comment was of interest.

[WilsonBlvdHoya]

DFW said:

I think there are some posters who can shed some mroe light on this but many Vatican II discussions on liturgical space involved the altar. Most churches did not take out their pews, for example, as Dahlgren did.

Undated Dahlgren photo:
www.library.georgetown.edu/dept/speccoll/i/page/dahlin-1.jpg


It's also unfair to lump in all students who are, for lack of a better term, Catholic protagonists, with the anti-Vatican II crowd (which are generally 1-2 generations their elder), nor are they always of a conservative political bent. My original point, lost in the interim, was that Georgetown seems to walk an uneasy path between a Steubenville (where faculty and trustees take an oath of fidelity to the Church) and a Marist (which now considers itself an "independent" school without formal religious ties) and this is where that student's comment was of interest.

Agreed but over the last 20-30 years there has existed a vocal and not-so-underfunded "sub-culture" of arch-conservative Catholics (Academy, Stewards and others) on campus who lament the supposed "degradation" of GU's Catholic identity when issues such as H*yas for Choice, outreach to gays, and other hot-button issues emerge. Interesting how these groups remain deafeningly silent when the Church issues teachings on the morality of capital punishment (no condemnation of Bush executing orders to kill a convicted mentally retarded murderer), the war in Iraq and how it fails Catholic just war teachings, persecution of the Church in the 80s by right-wing Central American regimes/military (including the murder of the Jesuits and their workers at UCA in San Salvador in 89), etc.

Apparently, for these folks, the seamless garment has several seams and their names are either "abortion" or "fidelity to CERTAIN Church teachings." Maybe we should pull students from Sursum Corda to hang crucifixes in classroom campuses; that way, GU will be "more Catholic."

[Nevada Hoya]

One of the more progressive Catholic communities (yes, they go by community, instead of church) in Las Vegas, has no pews, but moveable chairs, which are usually rearranged depending upon the liturgical season. The altar is in the middle of this configuration. Some of the more conservative Catholics in the area are always complaining about this parish. This parish has had some of the most innovative liturgies that I have attended. Nothing is outside of Vatican II, but the conservatives speak of it as almost heretical. It seems as if some of the things this parish does in liturgy find their way into other parishes later on. I think the absence of kneelers really drives some people crazy.

[SFHoya99]

As a Catholic and a fairly laid back person, I always thought it funny that the prime example/debate for Catholicism on campus revolved all but exclusively around crosses in the classrooms.

As an intelligent person, I loved the fact that GU allowed debate and disagreement with the Church. That stance has frankly made me more religious/Catholic and a better person, I think, whereas the non-intellectual stylings of my home parish had all but driven me away.

[HoyaLawya]

Absence of kneelers ................... ?

American Catholics need to "get a grip" before attaching too much iconic value to kneelers. Or else, get out and travel a little bit. In the course of living abroad in '71-'72 and visiting an awful lot of Catholic churches throughout Europe which had been built down through the ages, I was struck at how many were arrangements with chairs and no kneelers ........ and this had not been part of a post-Vatican II surge of activity to remove pews. The pews had never been there to begin with.

Yet there was no absence of the practice of "kneeling" during the Consecration ... it just took place on the COLD, HARD STONE FLOORS ... that's all.

[Nevada Hoya]

Now that is dedication, kneeling on cold, hard stone, HoyaLawya. Were there any people in those beautiful cathedrals in Europe? I hear that the attendance at Mass in Europe is pretty low these days. I was wondering how it was in '71 and '72.

[SoCalHoya]

I don't think I can articulate my thoughts on Catholicism as well as SFHoya99 did. I always enjoyed and welcomed the religious debates on the Hilltop. I felt it made my grow as an individual and even more so as a Catholic.

In high school, I always thought that as an adult I would be one of those Catholics that only went to Mass for weddings, funerals, etc. It was Georgetown that made me feel at home with the Church, that there were many good and sincere people within the Church and where I found an intellectual and progressive community of believers with which I could identify. Though I am always chided by my ND wife and her family/friends for Georgetown's "lack of Catholicism," I always smile inside knowing that it was the Jesuit academic and religious balance at Georgetown which brought me back into the fold. Had I *shudder* gone to ND, its conservative approach to Catholicism might've driven me away!

Hoya Saxa!

[Nevada Hoya]

Speaking about the conservative approach to Catholicsim, my son attended Univ of Portland (Notre Dame West, or as we like to call ND, UP East) and has since stopped going to Mass. It is ironic, however, that one of the Georgetown-educated Holy Cross Fathers at UP did more than his share in driving my son away. Mainly due to freedom of press issues (on the dorm newsletter).

[WilsonBlvdHoya]

A, um, different perspective from the Voice......

www.georgetownvoice.com/news/867282.html?mkey=949284

[One]

SoCal
I had the very experience to which you refer. Having attended a Jesuit high school followed by Georgetown, I felt a comfortable attachment to an intellectually stimulating, progressive Catholic community. I attended mass regularly at GU and particularly enjoyed Father King's Sunday night mass. Following GU I went to South Bend to attend law school at ND. The particular brand of Catholisism prevalent throughout the administration and community as a whole resulted in my no longer having any interest in attending mass. Now back in Chicago it has taken some time to resume regular Churchgoing. I have recently found a parish that reflects more of what I seek in attending Church. I think it is no coincidence that the parish priest went to Marquette law school and at first considered becoming a Jesuit before deciding to become a parish priest.
The point is this: the worldly view of a Jesuit education encouraged me to examine and question my faith which only served to make my faith stronger. I found the sort of blind faith so widely promulgated on campus in South Bend to be intellectually insulting at times.

[Nevada Hoya]

Nowhere was this conservative Catholicism in evidence more than the recent presidential election. My parish, which is pretty conservative, ran a series of articles about the election in their bulletin, many of them questioning whether you were a "good" Catholic, if you voted for Kerry. I wrote two letters to my pastor questioning this type of rhetoric, which had all the earmarks of the RNC. Since I have been part of the parish for 25 years, most of it as a EM and reader, it would be hard to cut myself off from it. I remain, maybe mainly as a thorn in the current pastor's side. When I am not scheduled, my wife (non-Catholic) and I gravitate to the UNLV Newman Center, which is staffed by a Dominican, who was much more progressive on the whole election.

[Cambridge]

Give unto Caesar what is his...

[SoCalHoya]

I (actually) though the Voice article to be quite good!

Thanks for your note, One. Am happy to hear that you found a parish in Chicago with which you could identify! It is certainly tough sometimes.

Pax