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Post by FrostbackHoya on Dec 29, 2004 9:50:49 GMT -5
... are often benchwarmers. During my era ('89-'91), we had Vlad 'the Impaler' and my favourite Canucklehead, Pascal Fleury. Not everyone who gets a schollie will pan out.
I agree that Sead was a panic move. BB, Ashanti, even Ray Reed? Not so much panic as just a poor recruiting eye -- how much of the JT2 era recruiting was JT and how much CE? And -- and this is a legit question, too -- how much of CE's issues with recruiting need to be weighted to his lead recruiter, RonnyT?
Quite frankly, I'm glad JTIII didn't have to fire Ronny in his house-cleaning -- 'cause everyone had to go, just to get a clean start.
This is going to be an up&down year -- here's hoping the ups are higher than the downs are low.
We're still on track for a 6-10 BE getting us to the NIT. And I still think we can do it.
Hoya Saxa!
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Post by Fan Of The Game on Dec 29, 2004 11:38:00 GMT -5
I feel like I was watching a different game than the rest of you last night.
The big difference in Ray's performance last night was that he was NOT a defensive stopper. On offense he was non-existent, box scores aside. III wisely pulled him when the game got into crunch time and he did not log a minute of OT.
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kghoya
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Post by kghoya on Dec 29, 2004 11:44:47 GMT -5
I feel like I was watching a different game than the rest of you last night. The big difference in Ray's performance last night was that he was NOT a defensive stopper. On offense he was non-existent, box scores aside. III wisely pulled him when the game got into crunch time and he did not log a minute of OT. after he got his pocket picked late in the game he never saw the floor again. i wish i sat with some of the members of the ray reed fan club. i am actually glad i wasnt able to get one of my friends out to the game last night. id rather them not see what i saw.
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FOTP
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Post by FOTP on Dec 29, 2004 11:50:38 GMT -5
Reed takes things off the table. If you were at the game and paid attention then you would have seen his usual out of control ways.
Huge pet peeve: Reed always tries to get up in players faces on defense acting like he's really trying hard on D. The problem is guards get by him ALL THE TIME and into the lane.
On offense it's safe to assume that Ray doesn't actually run the offense. Watch him carefully next game. The PG is supposed to pass the ball to the wing and then comes down thru the lane. He passes the ball and then stands there demanding to get the ball back.
Reed is a streetball player who has no concept about the team game. III has no choice to play him because we have nothing else on the bench to spell the starters.
Reed did OK last night because he played against the level of players he can compete against...it's just that simple. He would be a really solid player in the MEAC.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Dec 29, 2004 12:04:19 GMT -5
Reed is by no means a MEAC player. He is a major-conference athlete who has yet to develop his game by the start of his sophomore year. That makes him like, I don't know, thousands of other guys who turned into good college players. I don't know how Reed will turn out, but to call him a MEAC level player because he is inconsistent early in his career is dillusional.
Moreover, he is not a "streetball" or "pickup" player because he plays out of control at times. Those are simply bad basketball plays. Reed also uses his same skills to make good basketball plays. Twice, NSU failed to stop the ball and Reed made the correct play: driving straight to the basket for layups (one of which he made and one of which he missed). To consider him a pickup player is to fail to understand the sport.
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Eurostar
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Post by Eurostar on Dec 29, 2004 12:07:49 GMT -5
Anyone know whats going on with RaMell? He played great in the first 5 or so games of the season, but all of a sudden his minutes have been reduced to single digits per game. He played 2 minutes last night to Reeds 20 and DJ's 36. In the Clemson game he also played 2 minutes, and 9 minutes vs. LBS. Though, he had decent minutes in the first game in Hawaii against Oral Roberts. Hopefully he's sick or something because he played well in the first part of our season, and we need him contributing at 15-20 minutes a game in the Big East.
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kghoya
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Post by kghoya on Dec 29, 2004 12:12:53 GMT -5
ramell should be feeling great after last night. his dad won the visa chevy chase check card contest!
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 29, 2004 12:18:56 GMT -5
Reed did OK last night because he played against the level of players he can compete against...it's just that simple. He would be a really solid player in the MEAC. Or apparently in the ACC, because his best game was versus Clemson. Maybe he couldn't take the MEAC guards, but he grabbed five steals versus those ACC guards. It isn't a matter of talent, it's a matter of skills and discipline. You apparently don't think those can be taught. III obviously does. I do, too. Players get better -- you need to play those with potential. No one better off the bench? I guess RaMell must be hurt, because he was playing well but has seen Ray grab time. Or maybe Ray is just outperforming him. You've obviously made up your mind, because you're spinning out arguments with massive assumptions (such as your recruiting argument, which is based on the laughable assumption that the USC and UCLA coaching staffs NEVER make a mistake recruiting).
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FOTP
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Post by FOTP on Dec 29, 2004 12:20:45 GMT -5
Folks - Let me give you some Ray Reed stats from his career (37 games so far). They are appalling to say the least.
Averages 17 minutes a game.
34.9% for the field 28.9% from 3 54.4% from the FT line 47 assists to 50 Turnovers 3.58 points/game .9 Steals per game 2 fouls per game
The guy takes things off the table. He shoots terribly...has an AWFUL assist/TO ratio...fouls too much and doesn't get enough steals to justify his aggressiveness.
I won't even get into how his stats fall off in BE play...
I used the term streetball player as a means to try and protect the kid. I guess I should have just said that he isn't very good. I tried to be nice about it, but facts are facts.
I've seen Ray Reed play live, on tv and watched summer league games and it's pretty safe to say that he is what he is...not good.
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Post by Fan Of The Game on Dec 29, 2004 12:25:36 GMT -5
But he's all we've got on the bench, so here's to him showing improvement.
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FOTP
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Post by FOTP on Dec 29, 2004 12:27:18 GMT -5
Agreed. We need him to play better off the bench.
If Ray Reed is in the rotation next year then JTIII has done a poor job of recruiting.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 29, 2004 12:35:31 GMT -5
Folks - Let me give you some Ray Reed stats from his career (37 games so far). They are appalling to say the least. Averages 17 minutes a game. 34.9% for the field 28.9% from 3 54.4% from the FT line 47 assists to 50 Turnovers 3.58 points/game .9 Steals per game 2 fouls per game The guy takes things off the table. He shoots terribly...has an AWFUL assist/TO ratio...fouls too much and doesn't get enough steals to justify his aggressiveness. I won't even get into how his stats fall off in BE play... I used the term streetball player as a means to try and protect the kid. I guess I should have just said that he isn't very good. I tried to be nice about it, but facts are facts. I've seen Ray Reed play live, on tv and watched summer league games and it's pretty safe to say that he is what he is...not good. Wow, are you in politics? That's a nice spin on the stats. Using per game stats when he's never started or gotten significant minutes? Offering no context versus his teammates? Using his career instead of his improved play this year? Even though it was under a coach who didn't teach? Oh, and subjective evaluation by a random person, excuse me if I dispose of that. I don't always trust my own eyes, or even an experts, so I'm not being rude when I say I won't trust your final point.
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FOTP
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Post by FOTP on Dec 29, 2004 12:46:59 GMT -5
OK...here are the team stats...
41% from the field 34% from 3 71% from FT line assist to turnover ratio for the team is just awful (.7)...it makes me sick to see it in print.
So basically Ray Reed has underperformed the team in most categories. He plays enough (nearly half a game) to give the statistics credibility.
As it pertains to the full game stats or per 40 minutes theory...just double everything. The shooting stats don't don't change.
I agree that stats aren't everything. Some guys don't look good on the stat line, but do other things really well. Ray Reed isn't one of those guys.
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KHoyaNYC
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Post by KHoyaNYC on Dec 29, 2004 12:49:52 GMT -5
How is using stats spin, regardless of whether its average or career or this season, etc. etc? The numbers speak for themselves. The majority of posters on this board say Ray Reed overall is more of a minus than a plus for this team. The overall numbers (and you can use whatever numbers you like) support this claim. I haven't seen or read anything to convince me otherwise yet.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 29, 2004 13:28:09 GMT -5
You can always spin stats...c'mon, it's all in what stats you choose to present. I'm not trying to say Ray is all BE, but I think you are underselling the guy.
Objectively as I can, looking at Ray versus his competition (AC, JW, DO, RR) for 40 minutes. Stats are from this year. Using last year's stats you can make ANYONE look bad.
Scoring
Ray's played the worst of the lot this season so far. His shooting in FG% is substantially below the other guards, and his 3PT% is well below AC, JW and DO, though above RR. His FT % is 100% but in very few attempts. He was a poor FT shooter last year. Scoring wise, Ray is easily last in points per 40 minutes with 6.3. Team average is 10.7, led by Ashanti's 13.6.
Passing/Ball Control
Statistically, these two have to be combined, because they don't separate dribbling TOs and passing TOs. Here's the team leader list for Assists per 40 minutes:
Ray Reed - 4.6 Ashanti Cook - 3.4 John Wallace - 3.0 DJ Owens - 2.8 Ramell Ross - 1.8
Despite not practicing with the team, Reed has been the best at finding guys cutting and near the basket.
He does turn the ball over more than anyone. Again, you're right that he can be wild. But his A:TO ratio is at 1.5 right in line with AC, JW and DO and well ahead of RaMell.
Easily Measurable Defense
It shouldn't surprise anyone that Ray leads the team in stelas/40 minutes and trails only Ashanti once you throw in blocks as well. He's a full turnover forced better per 40 than JW or DO have been. It doesn't make him a better defender, of course, but I don't think anyone on GU is exactly a shutdown guard.
Reed does need to get his fouling under control. He averages 4.3/40, which is much more than the three guards with more PT, and only slightly less than RaMell.
Rebounding
RaMell leads the ways here, then DJ. But Reed has grabbed the most rebounds per minute of the "small guards." Interestingly, AC has been the worst; he was a pretty good rebounder for a 6'2" guy last year.
Summary
Reed is intriguing to me, and I assume to III as well, because of the fact that he's been the best passer we have. He's pentrated when no one else will. And he's probably the quickest guard we have, even if you don't like his style. Is he all-Big East? No. Should he ever start? I wouldn't, unless he starts hitting his shots. Should he play 20 mpg over RaMell? I can see it. Will he be recruited over? I can see that, too. Does he deserve to be a constant whipping boy? No.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Dec 29, 2004 13:41:01 GMT -5
Excellent post, SF.
My recollection is that Reed was a very good shooter and an excellent free throw shooter in HS, so there is hope for improvement in those areas.
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FOTP
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Post by FOTP on Dec 29, 2004 13:47:05 GMT -5
I'm not trying to argue that Ray shouldn't be playing on this team at all. The guard situation is a problem as a group.
You've successfully argued that Ray should get some minutes this year. I have no problem with that.
My whole point is that Ray is not a BE caliber player who wasn't being recruited by schools in his own backyard.
Does he deserve minutes realative to the other poor guard player? Sure. Doesn't mean I have to like it.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Dec 29, 2004 14:11:18 GMT -5
FOTP, I guess I don't understand what you mean when you say Reed isn't a BE player. He is easily a BE athlete (in contrast to say, Drew Hall) and despite his inconsistency, he does show basketball skill (in contrast to say, Omari Faulkner). Right now, he doesn't compete very well at a BE level, but he's only a sophomore. Many players who have gone on to be very successful contributed at a similiar level to Reed at this point in their careers. Consider a guy like Don Reid, who averaged about 10 ppg in HS and didn't play much in his first two seasons but was very solid as a junior and senior. It's way too early to write off a guy like Reed and classify him as unable to compete at this level.
There are many guys who are BE players, but never develop into very good ones. Take Daymond Jackson for instance. He was a solid, perhaps better than average, athlete for the BE level. He certainly showed sound basketball skills at times. However, for some reason he never materialized into a good BE player. That doesn't mean that he was unworthy of competing at the BE level. Let's hope Reed turns out better than Jackson. As fans, we should support him instead of constanting degarding him. At least on the defensive end (at least 50% of the game, and something that stats never fully speak to), he could be a pretty good player and an asset to the program.
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Post by TrueHoyaBlue on Dec 29, 2004 14:23:00 GMT -5
I think the question is, what makes a Big East player? Is it being someone who should make the All Big East team? Someone who would start for UConn? Or is it someone who will add to a team's depth and ability, and ideally become a net plus for his team in the Big East season.
I think it's clear that Chris Thomas counts as a Big East player, but does Darryl Hill? Josh Pace? Craig Forth? Donnie McGrath?
Does Big East level player mean somebody who would start on one of the top four teams in the conference? If so, then 85% of the players in the Big East are not "Big East Players."
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Dec 29, 2004 14:31:38 GMT -5
Would be nice if you stopped trashing Reed and put your trust in III to do the right thing with him. Let's see if Reed can improve and hope he does and goes on to become a really productive guy. We need him to do so.
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