Moore comments

[SaxaCD]

From the HS.com front page:

"Moore, who retracted his verbal commitment to attend Georgetown after his junior season, told The State that former Montrose Prep teammates Harvey Thomas, Drew Hall, and Tony Bethel advised him not to sign with Georgetown.

"They didn't think it was a good place I should go if I wanted to get better,” Moore said. “It was more of a big-man school. That’s the way [Georgetown] made the program. They didn't really help the guards to get better.”<br>
I'm glad those guys are off the team now. I especially hope that all these guys who are now enrolled at more guard friendly schools continue to post crappy numbers. Maybe they should have told Moore instead, "don't go to Georgetown, they're so out of it, they think guys like us are worth a scholarship"

[MEGAFAN]

I am more upset by the fact that former Hoyas dished out this advice than I am by Moore's comments, or those of other recruits, in that they were never Hoyas.

I think that the bad-mouthing that was doled out by Bethel, Thomas and Hall is unique to their time/situation, and to their relationship with Esherick, but I still find this type of talk a sign of immaturity and resentment, and I do take it somewhat to heart.

Other guys who left, such as Shenard Long, who thrived at Georgia State after leaving Georgetown, never had anything negative to say about us, but then again, maybe it's because they actually accomplished something after leaving the Hilltop!

Well, I hope this disparaging commentary is used to motivate our troops tonight and help secure a much-needed victory.

GO HOYAS!!! BEAT CLEMSON!

[jerseyhoya34]

In all honesty, it was probably good advice given the condition of our program and its former leadership. Very few people did get better under Esherick, so that much of it was accurate.

That does not cover up for the fact that these guys should be ambassadors for the program and should try to make it better in spite of what they think about the coaches. That much disappoints me.

[SaxaCD]

Exactly - they may have been right to tell him that, but that doesn't mean i have to like them or root for them now. And if their numbers don't improve at their new schools, maybe it's time to look in the mirror instead of playing the blame game.

Either way, nice bulletin board fodder for Cook, Owens, Wallace, et al.

[aggypryd]

MEGAFAN said:

I am more upset by the fact that former Hoyas dished out this advice than I am by Moore's comments, or those of other recruits, in that they were never Hoyas.

I think that the bad-mouthing that was doled out by Bethel, Thomas and Hall is unique to their time/situation, and to their relationship with Esherick, but I still find this type of talk a sign of immaturity and resentment, and I do take it somewhat to heart.

Other guys who left, such as Shenard Long, who thrived at Georgia State after leaving Georgetown, never had anything negative to say about us, but then again, maybe it's because they actually accomplished something after leaving the Hilltop!

Well, I hope this disparaging commentary is used to motivate our troops tonight and help secure a much-needed victory.

GO HOYAS!!! BEAT CLEMSON!

I don't understand...why hold animosity against these guys?

It's not like they were lying...We ALL know that what they spoke is the truth...

name one guard that the Georgetown program developed into a pro prospect...not someone that already had pro written all over him like Sleepy Floyd, Smitty or Iverson...but someone that came in raw and G'Town's philosophy gave them the tools to make them into better players...

[SirSaxa]

aggypryd said:

name one guard that the Georgetown program developed into a pro prospect...not someone that already had pro written all over him like Sleepy Floyd, Smitty or Iverson...but someone that came in raw and G'Town's philosophy gave them the tools to make them into better players...

ACtually, Smitty is a really good example of someone who got better. So would be Gene Smith. Derrick Jackson and Johnny Duren were good recruits, but both got a lot better. All of those were under the JT era though. The guys we are talking about were there with Esh.

I can't find the energy to be upset with Hall, Bethel and Thomas. Look at it the other way. They got to GU when things were really going badly and Craig was not the answer. How could they -- in good conscience -- tell a friend of theirs to come? would any of you? They didn't go to the W. Post and W. Times or even the HOYA and VOICE to complain. They simply told a friend of theirs what they really thought. Could they legitimately have done anything else???

Craig was not developing players, and was not a leader. Word has it he went so far as to berate Anthony Perry for going home over the summer and working on his shot with his old HS coach. The results showed and Perry was doing much better. When asked about it, he mentioned his work with hall of fame HS coach Bobby Hurley. Craig came down hard on him and told him never to mention another coach again. Does that sound like a confident leader of young men??

But those days are in the past. Princeton's players were very complimentary about JT3 as a man and as a coach. Thank goodness we are building in the right direction once again.

[hoyanick]

If those rumors are true, ESH sounds like a good head case for the GU psychology department to study.

[DFW HOYA]

I posted the article at 7:00 am and was very surprised no one followed up on it until now.

Such conduct by these former players is at best, stupid and at worst, reprehensible. It's one thing to give one's advice to a prospect, quite another to tell a committed player not to honor a commitment. One could only imagine what Craig's predecessor would have done if one of his players was found to be negatively recruiting against Georgetown in this fashion!

The line in the article about Moore thinking Craig Esherick was going to get fired is very telling. When did Moore decommit? December 2002. There was no serious talk about Esherick's job status at that point; the Hoyas were 8-1 and just out of the Top 25 (with 52 votes the last week of that month). Its only loss was by four to UVa at MCI.

The 02-03 Hoyas were a year removed from the Swet 16, coming off a 19 win season (9-7 in conference play), albeit with the scheduling mess with ESPN over the NIT. GU returned four starters and the Washington Post preview read, in part, "In his fourth full season as Georgetown's coach, Craig Esherick has his most experienced and potentially best team."

So here's the question--who was telling Moore that Esherick was in such trouble in 2002, and why?

N.B. To the point above Charles Smith was NBA material, well, he wasn't when he arrived. He became one because he was a four year player. The litany of guards who walked away from Georgetown during this span did not leave for a lack of player development.

[CO_Hoya]

I have to disagree with DFW here.

I don't have any problem with them telling Moore (or any other recruit) about what they believed was a bad situation at G'Town. They did so in confidence (i.e. not to the press), and they gave their honest assessment of the program to someone who had NBA ambitions. I believe Bethel has said that he transfered to have a better chance of playing professionally, implying that Esh was a hinderence to NBA ambitions. Whether this is true or not is a separate issue.

To me, this was not tampering, this was whistle-blowing.

And, as to DFW's question of who did it, I think the article states it that "former Montrose Prep teammates Harvey Thomas, Drew Hall, and Tony Bethel advised him not to sign with Georgetown," and I'm willing to take that at face value.

[HoyaNJ5]

I'd also have to disagree with DFW here. When Bethel, Thomas, and Hall advised Moore, this was done so in confidence. Bethel, Hall, and Thomas had many opportunities to criticize the program when they left, but they chose not to do so. The fact that Moore decided to reveal the advice that Bethel and the rest of the guys gave him was his doing. Moore opened up this to the press. If you look back, Bethel and those other guys did not criticize Esh and the program. If I were in their place, I definitely would have advised a friend of mine that it was not in his best interest to come to G'Town.

[SFHoya99]

While it is hard for me to criticize anyone for telling a friend what they believe to be true, a couple of things grate.

One, I bet GU has a lot more NBA guards in their history than Clemson.

Two, Harvey Thomas bad-talking the program after how well they've covered up his indiscretions, placed him at a JC, etc? We know this guy has issues -- this is rich.

Three, I love how TB and DH blamed Esherick and Georgetown for them not developing. I wonder, because it isn't clear from the article, if either of them ever put any of that blame on themselves?

[DFW HOYA]

Sir Saxa:I can't find the energy to be upset with Hall, Bethel and Thomas. Look at it the other way. They got to GU when things were really going badly and Craig was not the answer.

They arrived in the fall of 2001, right after the Sweet 16. Probably as good a year as any in recent years.

Hoya NJ5: If I were in their place, I definitely would have advised a friend of mine that it was not in his best interest to come to G'Town.

NJ5, I guess I have two different concerns here.

The point that the players advised a verbal commitment to go elsewhere is bad enough on its own. However, if anyone made inferences to Moore in the fall of 2002 that led Moore to assume that Craig Esherick would soon be fired, that's a much more serious issue.

Finally, I'm not placing blame on any of the three players identified in the article, largely because it's Moore's word against theirs. There are a lot of unanswered questions from this article which, an all likelihood, will stay that way.

[jackdog74]

I gotta agree w/DFW on all points:

1) I too was surprised it was not brought up earlier.

2) There's something not quite right with bad mouthing your team. Regardless of the situation, you have to show some maturity and put the best spin on it. There's something rather sinister about bad mouthing the program like that.

[ColumbiaHeightsHoya]

I wouldn't expect another player to come from Montrose Christian in the next twenty years. When you burn a high schools players like we did, you are done. Unfortunately, this school puts out players. All these guys were probably right and we never developed a single player in Esh's tenure. Sweets was thompson.

[SFHoya99]

ColumbiaHeightsHoya said:

I wouldn't expect another player to come from Montrose Christian in the next twenty years. When you burn a high schools players like we did, you are done. Unfortunately, this school puts out players. All these guys were probably right and we never developed a single player in Esh's tenure. Sweets was thompson.

Sweets was a Thompson recruit, no doubt, but he never played for him. Sweets' development occurred under Esherick.

Esherick was obviously not a good coach, but players did progress. I think coaches are given waay too much credit, and the personal ethic of the player too little.

[jerseyhoya34]

SFHoya99 said:

Sweets was a Thompson recruit, no doubt, but he never played for him. Sweets' development occurred under Esherick.

Esherick was obviously not a good coach, but players did progress. I think coaches are given waay too much credit, and the personal ethic of the player too little.

The earlier point was about Ronny Thompson, I think, who oversaw Sweetney's workouts and so forth. He was invited by Sweetney to the NBA Draft, unlike Esherick.

[SFHoya99]

Oh, yes, somehow the fact that Ronnie ran with him took all credit away from Esherick. Back in the days when everything that went wrong was CE's fault. And nothing good was him. Esh was head coach. Credit and blame lie with him.

[HoyaNJ5]

DFW said:

They arrived in the fall of 2001, right after the Sweet 16. Probably as good a year as any in recent years.


NJ5, I guess I have two different concerns here.

The point that the players advised a verbal commitment to go elsewhere is bad enough on its own. However, if anyone made inferences to Moore in the fall of 2002 that led Moore to assume that Craig Esherick would soon be fired, that's a much more serious issue.

DFW-

I may be misrepresenting your concerns, but it seems to me like the three players were insinuating that Esherick would not do a good job helping them develop as players. Nowhere did I get the impression that they implied Esherick would be fired. If anything, they probably thought that Esherick would NOT be fired, which is why they advised otherwise.

On the point of the verbal commitment, there is a reason why its a verbal and non-binding. I don't see how them advising their friend on what is best for them has anything to do with Moore breaking his word. Ultimately, the decision is up to Moore. I would not hesitate for a second to advise my friend that Esherick has not had a good track record developing players. Again, the three players NEVER bashed the program in the public spotlight when they had plenty of opportunities to do so. Their advice seems to have been given in confidence.

[HoyaFanNY]

personally, i don't want a player that takes advice from the likes of harvey thomas. i'm glad we put a beating on clemson.

[michiganhoya]

Maybe Moore visited the board a few times. When did we start calling for E's head?