Locker
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by Locker on Dec 15, 2007 15:58:54 GMT -5
Maybe Jason Clark blows up and locks down a spot. The possibilities are endless.
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RBHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by RBHoya on Dec 15, 2007 16:05:26 GMT -5
Sapp, Rivers, Freeman, Summers, Monroe Macklin and Wright are the first guys off the bench. Macklin could come in for anybody and shift everyone down, and Wright would come in for Sapp/Rivers/Freeman. That's what I'm leaning towards at the moment, though most people seem to assume Vern gets Roys spot. IMO, he's got to show more before he gets that. But as mentioned anything is liable to happen. Still a long way away.
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gujake
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by gujake on Dec 15, 2007 16:22:15 GMT -5
Man, I love seeing an article like this. So many guys are too stubborn to work on their shot the right way. It's one thing to practice shooting, but to actually change the form on your shot is very difficult. Practice alone won't help your shot much, since you are just reinforcing a bad habit into muscle memory. This is why very few college players develop a shot and why I figured Jeremiah never would.
Huge kudos to Jeremiah for going through this process.
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MCIGuy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by MCIGuy on Dec 15, 2007 17:44:10 GMT -5
I knew he had truly turned a corner with that on the move pull-up three pointer he made against Alabama while going sideways towards the baseline. It was also a big shot to take considering how tight the game was in the 2nd half.
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Post by afalcon10 on Dec 16, 2007 0:05:08 GMT -5
wright sapp freeman summers monroe
def. not Vern. rivers could challenge wright for sure.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Dec 16, 2007 0:15:27 GMT -5
wright sapp freeman summers monroe def. not Vern. rivers could challenge wright for sure. I do not see III wanting Monroe to start as center, folks. Even if he's not playing the role of a routine center. Plus III called Macklin his "center of the future" for a reason. But, yeah, we'll see how it all shakes out next season.
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prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by prhoya on Dec 16, 2007 0:17:59 GMT -5
Yeah. I don't see Monroe at the 5. But, JTIII will have more large frames to choose from next year to share PT down low with Mack.
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SDHoya
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Post by SDHoya on Dec 16, 2007 0:45:55 GMT -5
The students especially (excluding those on this board) have a skewed opinion of Rivers. i always hear "what are you doing!!!" from various students every time Rivers shoots the three. this year i am able to turn around to these fools with a smug smile after Rivers drains it. Enough of this bashing down the "Rivers Bashers". He may well have been criticized too harshly last year, but I think we are now looking back with rose colored glasses as to how good he actually was. I acknowledge that he was a solid defender and passer last year. But he was still a mediocre ballhandler, and as a shooter, he was horrendous. If any of you care to remember more clearly, when he was in, teams began to shift their defenses away from him, essentially daring him to shoot and taking away any pass option. He was an offensive liability last year, no question. I don't think anyone expected the type of improvement that we have seen from him so far. He is calm and steady on the ball, and now is a more than decent catch and shooter as well. But is he as good as Wright? At the moment, maybe he is, but only due to experience. As solid as Wright has looked, and as ridiculously quick as he is, judging by JTIII's success with player development, he is going to be one of the nation's best guards by the start of the next season. Rivers just does not have as high a ceiling as Wright does.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Dec 16, 2007 1:46:38 GMT -5
The students especially (excluding those on this board) have a skewed opinion of Rivers. i always hear "what are you doing!!!" from various students every time Rivers shoots the three. this year i am able to turn around to these fools with a smug smile after Rivers drains it. Enough of this bashing down the "Rivers Bashers". He may well have been criticized too harshly last year, but I think we are now looking back with rose colored glasses as to how good he actually was. I acknowledge that he was a solid defender and passer last year. But he was still a mediocre ballhandler, If he was a mediocre ballhandler then Sapp and Wallace were horrendous ones. Sapp's handle is too loose (regardless of A to T ratio) and Wallace had troubles still with very quick players. The only thing Rivers lacked at first was expereince in playing in the big lights. But it was clear to those paying close attention that, outside of his shot, he was easily as fundamentally sound as any Hoya guard and could actually penetrate into the teeth of the defense in the paint as well as any of the guys in the starting backcourt.
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royski
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Post by royski on Dec 16, 2007 1:58:21 GMT -5
Sure, but then he would usually turn the ball over or throw up an ill advised lay-up that was often blocked. He's come leaps and bounds this year offensively.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Dec 16, 2007 2:31:41 GMT -5
Guards will turn the ball over when trying to create offense off the dribble. Especially inexpereinced ones. Wallace rarely penetrated and almost never to set up another teammate for a pass. Sapp dribbles into the paint almost exclusvely to get his "kiss" off the glass shot. Rivers though dribbled into the paint most times to feed a teammate. Of course if he doesn't do it correctly it becomes a turnover. I still liked the attempt though of an assist not spawned by the backdoor cut or a pass around the perimter, but by the creative abilities of a guard. Rives just needed some maturing on the court nd confidence. If he wasn't all that good as some people suggested III would have not given him so much playing time last season even despite the lack of depth.
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AvantGuardHoya
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Post by AvantGuardHoya on Dec 16, 2007 6:14:46 GMT -5
Some of the comments that were made about Rivers last year are the kind of things that bother me about certain posters. It is clear to me that it all too often it isn’t wise to make absolute judgments about freshmen. Players don’t arrive as finished products at any level; they are works in progress. Several posters said last year that Rivers couldn’t shoot and projected that he never would while wearing Hoya uniform. I suspect they didn’t appreciate what gifts he did bring to the table or grasp what attracted JT III to him in the first place. Of course you want talent, but the insightful and capable coach can see what a player has to offer, recognize what areas need to be improved and help the player reach his potential.
I find it amazing that someone criticizes Rivers’ ball handling. That boy is no weak dribbler or passer! I recall early last season when a friend spoke glowingly to me of an early season game in which Rivers effortlessly brought the ball upcourt against a press, using just a left-handed dribble. We should all recognize and trust him with the ball.
And stop jumping to conclusions about freshmen! They’ve just arrived at another level. Give ‘em a chance to grow in our system, mesh with their teammates and develop their skills.
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AvantGuardHoya
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Post by AvantGuardHoya on Dec 16, 2007 6:22:01 GMT -5
Some of the comments that were made about Rivers last year are the kinds of things that bother me about certain posters. All too often it isn’t wise to make absolute judgments about freshmen. Players don’t arrive as finished products at any level; they are works in progress.
Several posters said last year that Rivers couldn’t shoot and projected that he never would while wearing a Hoya uniform. I suspect they didn’t appreciate what gifts he did bring to the table or grasp what attracted JT III to him in the first place. Of course you want talent, but the insightful and capable coach can see what a player has to offer, recognize what areas need to be improved and help the player reach his potential.
I find it amazing that someone criticizes Rivers’ ball handling. That boy is no weak dribbler or passer! I recall early last season when a friend spoke glowingly to me of an early season game in which Rivers effortlessly brought the ball upcourt against a press, using just a left-handed dribble. Nothing I've seen suggests we shouldn't trust him with the ball.
And stop jumping to conclusions about freshmen!! They’ve just started playing college ball. Give ‘em a chance to grow in our system, mesh with their teammates and further develop their skills.
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SDHoya
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Post by SDHoya on Dec 16, 2007 9:17:50 GMT -5
I didn't say he was weak, I said he was mediocre. In other words, he was unable last year to really create anything for himself off the dribble, ie. to make up for his shooting deficiency. Wallace and Sapp were not terrific last year in that respect either, but they each brought a lot more to the table then Rivers did. Rivers got playing time last year because of his defense and lack of depth, just like Ray Reed did a few years ago, another guard who was near useless offensively. Rivers has improved on the ball, although that is not that surprising thing about his transformation. His shooting has gone from Macklin levels to around where Jessie Sapp has come as a shooter. I don't believe anyone who claims they predicted this type of improvement last year.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Dec 16, 2007 9:47:02 GMT -5
You don't have to believe anything. Frankly its irrelevant to this discussion. Nonetheless some of us saw how good this guy could be which is why I wrote quite a few times that if he gets his shot and confidence in order he has a good chance at being a pro because he has everything else in his favor (height, athleticism, handle, defensive ability, being a coach's son and court vision).
Yep he was pretty bad at creating shots for himself (more about confidence than ability IMO), but he was superior in showing the capability of driving and dishing when compared to Sapp and Wallace. If you didn't pick up on that when watching him play last season then so be it. Don't get upset at those of us who did pick up on this.
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hoyaboy1
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Post by hoyaboy1 on Dec 16, 2007 10:29:48 GMT -5
Lets not get too high and mighty about Rivers, MCI. He is our best defensive guard, a good rebounder, never turns it over, and his shot has certainly picked up - and I'm hopeful that it isn't just a hot streak.
But you are overstating his court vision and ability to drive and dish, I think - last year he averaged .9 assists in 11.7 minutes, and this year he is averaging 2 in 19.9 minutes, far from great numbers. By comparison Sapp is averaging 3.75 in only 2 more minutes.
I'm not trying to bash Rivers, so please don't get all defensive. I've been very happy with what he has given us this year, and very surprised also since his shot wasn't falling in Kenner. But let's not go crazy with hindsight. He struggled so much offensively last year that he wasn't a very good player, and some of this stuff you saw with regards to court vision and the like hasn't manifested itself yet - but I hope it will.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Dec 16, 2007 11:41:31 GMT -5
hoyaboy, you have your opinion on how he played/plays and I have mine. I appreciate the advice on how I should not go overboard but I think I'll stick by my guns. I see what I see and disagree with your assessment (such as concerning court vision which can't really be measured anyway). Nothing more, nothing less. And considering Sapp tends to play more minutes with the starters who are typically the better players that comparison you made concerning assists has a few flaws in theory.
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JimmyHoya
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Post by JimmyHoya on Dec 16, 2007 11:48:25 GMT -5
Anybody else notice he doesn't do that ridiculous spin move every time he crosses the time line these days? It was the wholly unnecessary one he'd do in place despite his defender being inside the three point line. It was like his security blanket. Now he's matured and its gone.
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SirSaxa
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by SirSaxa on Dec 16, 2007 14:14:45 GMT -5
I have not yet had the opportunity to see our Hoyas this season. But from all accounts, Rivers has improved his game.
Going back to last year, I haven't read anyone on this thread talk about the injury he suffered. My recollection is that early in the season, he was getting PT and looking pretty good. Then he suffered that serious ankle injury and he was out for a while. When he came back, he had to re-acclimate - and play his way into shape, and get familiar with the offense -- during the BE season.
JT3 brought him in for defense and for ball handling. To say he struggled offensively is misleading. He struggled with his shot. But he did not struggle with his handle or passing ability. As the season went on, this freshman recovered from his injury setback and became a major contributor.
I am not about to claim I knew his shot would improve so much so quickly, but I did think it would improve. I recall people saying Jessie Sapp couldn't shoot the three after his freshman year. But he took so few so infrequently, it was hard to get a feel for how good he could be.
Rivers is a great guy to have on this team. He is our best on-the-ball defender. He understands the offense. He has a good handle. He's got size. And on this team, he doesn't need to be our go-to offense guy. If he is our 5th option on offense, he is still a VERY valuable player and filling the role JT3 wants him to.
One more thing, AGH and others are right about expectations for freshmen. And it may apply even more so to Hoya freshmen in the JT3 system. Take Summers -- he took quite a while to acclimate last year and his game is much improved this year. Chris Wright has tons of talent, but adjusting to college ball, to BE ball and to the very sophisticated Georgetown offense and defense is a big challenge for anyone. Wright is going through a very normal learning/growing pains process. And he missed 5-6 weeks with an injury too.
The guy who has really made an incredible impression as a freshman (given all the above) is Awesome Freeman. It is scary to think where his game will be come March!
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prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by prhoya on Dec 16, 2007 14:31:15 GMT -5
Sir, kudos for "Awesome Freeman".
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