old school needed

[HoyaFanNY]

from the times.....

Early in the second half, Green walked through Georgetown's team huddle during a timeout and fired an elbow into the chest of 7-foot-2 freshman center Roy Hibbert. Official Lonnie Dixon pulled Green aside and warned him, but no technical foul was called.


that punk should have been flattened on the spot. that team was more aggressive and tougher than us and that is a shame. we need to take off the skirts and get tougher.......coaches included.

[TrueHoyaBlue]

Sounds like that was the story of the game... on everything from giving up offensive boards to not using enough of a slashing game.


One telling statistic is that while ORU committed 19 personal fouls to our 23, they went to the line 30 times, to the Hoyas' 15. Not having been able to listen to the game, this tells me that their fouls seem to have been caused by their aggressive defense, while ours seem to have been caused by their aggressive offense.


Also, it appeared from the play-by-play, that we missed several front ends of 1-and-1's, which couldn't have helped.

[the_way]

I think that is an example of what kind of team we have. Its not just about talent, its about intangibles as well. We have no fight. There is absolutely no passion with this team. There is no way in the world a guy from the other team should be able to walk into our teams huddle first, and then fire an elbow into one of our players. And nobody, I mean nobody do anything? Thats not good. I'm not saying start a brawl, but at least protect each other, and stick up for each other. Thats pathetic. Its obvious he knew they weren't going to do anything, and it was the same thing in the paint during the game with the rebounding. They just punked and chumped us, and we didn't care.

[YB]

Look, this was one game. No reason to jump off the cliff yet.

ORU was clearly quicker at every position and more aggressive in using that quickness. Allowed them to get open for inside buckets and ourside shots.

I think the team will not likely treat any other team lightly.

This was the first time they had regressed this season.

They do need to get tougher, Bowman, Freen, and Hibbert especially.

[SaxaCD]

ORU didn't look quicker at every position, but what they did was exploit things that we did wrong and refused to learn from. They scored about 10 points by running a screen that had Roy leave his man to guard their quick guard, who drove right by him everytime. JT3 coached the guards about this more than once, but it kept working anyway, and you could see the Hoya coach getting hot about it. During their key run, once we whittled the lead down to 4 and seemed to have momentum on our side, they capitalized on overeagerness on the part of the Hoya D in helping out and kicked it out for 2 easy threes, and also got a few other buckets from putbacks that they simply outmuscled GU players for. I can't count the number of times we had 2 rebounders to their one, but they still got the ball. Worst was when Caleb Green missed a FT, they got bound, missed a shot that bounced high off the rim, C. Green came in, gave Roy a short shove in the back, collected the board and layed it back in. They also missed a few of these "bunny" type putbacks.

Good position doesn't matter much when you can't hold it. One thing I won't do is criticize Roy too much, though. He looked to be our best player last night, once Jeff cooled off. The Junior / Senior players on the team really need to step it up in important games, but they need to play smarter as well as tougher.

[VolHoya]

Fellas,
Relax. Take a deep breath and realize this entire season is going to be a learning experience. To say this team plays with no passion is moronic.
Wallace, Green - no passion? What? Have you actually been to a game this season or are you just a reactionary boxscore devotee?
Second, Big Roy this game was a big positive for Big Roy. He still has serious defensive issues (who knew for a guy tabbed as an offensive liability with solid D skills?), but he's much more than the project everyone expected.
Third, OK, agreed this team needs a little more Boubacar and a little less Princeton, but they're still trying to establish an identity.
Fourth, Oral Roberts is easily the second best team they've played this season (far better than Temple). They have a load of transfers, imports (that little Aussie prick point gunner) and dubious JUCOs with serious game. They have experience in the backcourt, and Caleb Green would start for any team in the country...repeat ANY team in the country.
Finally, if you want to rail on a player on this team, turn your guns on BB, who has now left the blue and grays naked in consecutive serious games (Ill/ORU). Green, Wallace and Hibbert are frosh who can't be expected to bring it throw-down style every night; but Bowman, dude has got to buy in and be the workhorse. He had three or four insta-jacks last night early in the shot clock (all clanks) and got shut down for the most part on the defensive end by a man defense in which he was guarded by a guy 8 inches shorter. That just can't happen to your supposed stallion.

[YB]

I agree with you for the most part Vol.... but the guys did not play with lots of motivation last night. They got beat repeatedly on plays they should not have gotten beat on.

[HarbinHoya]

Hey All,
I havent posted in a long while, but last nights game really got me riled up. Now I dont mean to go off on an angry diatribe but this team is just awful.
For all the talk and speculation and hope, they continue to come out flat or even worse, come out hyped up and then not finish games.
Not to point fingers, but people on this board continue to talk about the development of BB and Cook and Owens etc, but lets face it, they simply do not have the ability to dig deep down the stretch. They really should not be our starters and they would probably be bench players on any good program. They are consistently inconsistent and I dont know how they can be better coached to overcome this. Plus, they are going to be seniors, how many years can we keep saying next year. Either there has to be a change in attitude or we are looking at more of the same.
Each year people talk about how our players need to bulk up, but they consistently come in looking skinny and afraid to body anyone in the post. Our 7'2 big man,Hibbert could be 8 feet tall, but unless he can box out, drop step and dunk then what good is it to have him out there. Given he was our highest scorer last night and given he is only 18 which will be the criticisms to this comment. But in response, how hard is it to be our highest scorer? It usually changes everyday and then after each game people say that one cant criticize the high scorer. Also on being young, all college players are young, now I think hibbert is going to be great, at least I hope, but why cant we get a player who is a freshman who can really ball. I know its gonna take time to bring in some good guys and that JT3 is recruiting his butt off, but we should be a really attractive draw to a lot of players and it seems as if no one is really interested. We are located in DC a mecca for basketball and we are on the east coast which produces so many good recruits, yet we consistently get shafted on good players from the area.
All im am trying to say in summary, is that I am so tired of hoping. Eventhough I am mad now, I will still go into every game with excitement and the feeling that we can win. I somehow convince myself of this each time. But it is just frustrating and infuriating that we lose by more to Oral Roberts then to Illinois. Inconsistency plagues this team and I can help but saying this over and over, but our players seem to lack motivation. This cloud is always there. Even if we lack talent what we could have is muscle and drive. If someone comes down hard on one of our players, other guys should stand up to him. Even if we miss rebounds, guys should be banging with opponents in the post.
Im sick of gtown being this sad, small, skinny whimpering team that gets beat by small schools from the middle of nowhere!!
I mean ORAL ROBERTS? This has got to be one of the darkest days in our programs history.
No coach is going to be able to change our team until the players wake up and decide they are sick of not being competitive. It just seems like from my days at gtown, with Braswell, Freeman, Rueben etc etc, our team would rather be down at Champs and Thirds the night before games or doing whatever, then being serious basketball players and until that mentality changes, this team is going nowhere fast.

[HoyaFanNY]

blaming everything on bowman is a cop out. he led the team in boards and assists last night. EVERYONE needs to hit the boards and the coaches need to incorporate some post plays in the offense.

[the_way]

Post Plays? What post player do we have. Mike Sweetney is in the NBA. Roy is not strong enough, and developed enough at this point,to be a post player, maybe down the road. Jeff Green can play the inside, but he is not a post-player, per se. Other than that, we have no one.

[hoyabinx]

Like I said in the other thread,

relax.

They may be playing flat but come on Harbin, Bowman's interviews before the season suggest that he is fired up for the season. We need to stay positive behind this team. Sure, maybe our guys would not start on other BE teams, but who cares, they are OUR GUYS. You aren't going to trade them, you aren't going to get double doubles out of them every night, but you are going to get them playing hard for their coach. Like Nolte says in Blue Chips, those guys played their heart out for me, but it wasn't good enough. Yeah they were flat last night, but this is not the "darkest days of the program." I would trade a loss to ORU (picked to win their conference) over our 3-15 record over the last 18 games of last season, that in my opinion is the darkest time of our program. This team has played 7 games and you are already quitting on them, preseason honeymoon over.

I love this team.

[HarbinHoya]

Like i Said,
Im not quitting on them, even though it may sound like it. Im just tired of people saying everytime that its going to be alright or to make excuses for everything we do wrong.
People write 40 posts analyzing each player and you know what they all end with? Either the phrase "did not show heart" , "Needs to display leadership" "fades down the stretch"
I guess what im saying is that this team so far has not showed me much to be optimistic about. Yes we are definitely better then we were last year. Yes i know we are only 7 games into the year and we have many more to go. But when does it get to be enough? When do people get to be frustrated?
Its not that we dont love our school and the team. I go down to as many games as I can get to in Gtown, I listen to all the games on the radio. Its not about heart or giving up on the team, Im sick of being accused of not being a real fan whenever I put forth a criticism on this board.
What do you think the reporters are saying about us? These are people that breath sports. "Georgetown gets blown out by Oral Roberts" No televised games... no recognition. Its just hard to deal with is all and I dont see why its not okay to call it like it is. Why cant we criticize players that consistently show a lack of motivation? Do you think that JT3 isnt yelling to them about the same thing after games? and if not why not? Why arent these players in the gym twice as long as everybody else, cause they need to be. Why hasnt bowman or cook or whoever added a pound of muscle while being at college. The thing that separates the top teams from the nobodies is the drive to put in effort above and beyond and if you see that in this team then I dont know what game you are watching.
Sometimes i read posts on this board and I feel like I am watching a different team. For example after the San Jose State game, everyone was raving about the team and about hibberts play etc. I went to that game. First off, we couldnt even fill mcdonough with students, sad, secondly that was a team we should have routed and we never really even had control of that game till mid second half. We made many of the same mistakes we always do and finally, Hibbert struggles to make layups consistently. I mean I beleive in development as well and I think we could really have a gem here, but right now, ive seen pick up players at yates with a better hook shot and ability to post up. Roy is a beast and he needs to be taught how to post up. I dont know if Ewing could come down during the summer to give some pointers, but the way people talk on this board, its like they think hes gonna be the next okafor and I just dont see it.
Anyway, im sure there will be a lot of responses to this post, blasting me for my negativity, but one thing that should be happening is that we should be learning from each game and making improvements and gaining the ability to recognize when people are exploiting our weaknesses so that we can correct them. So far that is not happening, I do not see a team that looks much different then we did that first game and that is not progress.
As for me, I will continue to be a fan and continue to root for the hoyas, so you can call me what you want, I just think im being realistic.

[KHoyaNYC]

Harbin-
I think the best way to deal with your frustration is to remind yourself that we are in rebuilding mode. We are not a team looking to contend for the BE title this year or even an NCAA tournament appearance. We are laying the groundwork for the future. This team hit rock bottom a year or two ago, not last night. We are in a very slow, deliberate rebuilding mode with a new coach, a new offense, and a ton of young players. It may not be pretty to watch at times, but we will get better and eventually be back to our old glorious ways. Just give it time.

[HarbinHoya]

You are right. I just needed to vent. I apologize for going nuts. I hope we can at least pull off the next two wins and get out of here with a good showing.
I dont care if we lose every game for the rest of the season, I am just putting in my christmas/hannukah/holiday wishes to whatever higher power may be up there.
Please, if nothing else LET US UPSET SYRACUSE THIS YEAR!!

[hoyabinx]

Harbin, good post. I agree with what you are saying for the most part (apart maybe from your expectations of Roy, who by most preseason reports would not contribute for 2 years).

You say, "when does someone get to be frustrated." My take on that is, we were all frustrated as heck under Esh, when he was fired that frustration was relieved for me. The way I look at it we hit rock bottom and with the hiring of JTIII began a new time that I am giving 3 years to prove itself. Yeah be frustrated with lossed to ORU and the same, but do so in a context. I guess the way I read the negative posts is "we are terrible, I hate this so much, I am so sick of this trend" and the way I see it is "We are pretty bad, and I do not like this, but this is not a continuation of a downward trend, its the growing pains at the beginning of a new one."

I actually think its kind of exciting not knowing what the heck is gonna happen, really tests your fandom. Also, this bitter is gonna make that sweet so much sweeter.

So direct your negativity and think about this as a new regime, heck, think about it as the first ever season of hoya basketball if you have to, it makes it fun.


P.S. Harbin, I was not accusing you of not being a real fan, I hate when people do that

[YB]

Look Harbin and binx, I sympathise with you- I mean, last night's loss was UG-LY.

It shows that we are young, slight and not all that quick.

We need to get older, stronger, and quicker.

And guess what? Those things can come with time. We might not be world-beaters this year but we have a young team that can do some special things and will also have some awful moments.

Be unhappy about the loss. I am and the team should be too. It should stick in our craws. It should also make them want to play harder and not get flattened by a Mid-Con level team.

But don't stop supporting our guys- for, after all, they are OUR guys and our support of them now will pay off dividends down the road.

[SaxaCD]

The "low point" was losing to last year's St. John's team that couldn't have beaten my high school team. This ORU team would have whipped that Redmen team by about 30.

And it remains that Roy Hibbert had a very nice game yesterday. Yes, he needs to work on a lot of his game, but he was aggressive in the post, calling for the ball a lot, banging for position (although he lost a lot of the banging wars), and scoring on some really nifty moves, including a drop step for a dunk and another dunk where he changed hands in mid-air. All in all, a great game for a "project". And to say they didn't play with heart is just one of those excuses fans use when they're frustrated. The fact is, the heart wasn't the problem, the slow feet and slow decision making on defensive switches were.

By the way, the "bump" Caleb Green gave shouldn't be blown out of proportion. It wasn't much of anything, and both Roy and Ramell got in some nice extracurricular "bumps" during the course of the game (the smart way to deal with something, as opposed to being goaded into a T). I actually liked the way Roy, Dikembe style, kept up a running dialog with both officials all game long.

[SFHoya99]

HarbinHoya said:

Why arent these players in the gym twice as long as everybody else, cause they need to be.

Why should you take this patiently?

1) Because the only thing you are accomplishing is to bash 18-22 year old kids. And most of the the time, you're bashing with incomplete knowledge.

That's it.

You and many others have made comments abut their effort, their heart, and you apply it to their entire lives and career. I've done it before, but it is WRONG. This whole board acts like Ray Reed doesn't try, but then we find out he's practicing his shot all the time. These guys work harder than you or I (well, me) and they don't deserve to be blasted for things you have no idea if it is true.

Is it true that we lost? Yes. Got outrebounded? Yes. was it a lack of hustle? maybe. Maybe ORU was quicker. Hell, you didn't EVEN SEE the game. Maybe ORU is just better, guys.

Adjusting to a new offense and a new defense takes time. And we're still gonna lose games even when we get "it." Have some freaking patience - I'm sure you learned everything you needed in ten seconds or less but some of us apparently need some time. And some of us have bad days.

I'm NOT saying you can't criticize. I think it is valid to do so. But you are attributing negative character traits to people because of a BOX SCORE! I know everyone is a hardcore fan, and everyone is just frustrated -- I was as well last night -- but sometimes we need to tone it down and realize that one game never determined anybody.

[SoCalHoya]

These are good guys. Don't get too down on them. Sure, yesterday was a huge misstep, but I for one make mistakes often enough to know that they don't define me or the year ahead of me. So lighten up. The guys are young, III is teaching them a whole new system and hopefully the upcoming games will offer them a chance to make some more progress. And maybe a little "old school" fire.

Hoya Saxa!