balla
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,059
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Jeff!
Nov 28, 2007 15:05:26 GMT -5
Post by balla on Nov 28, 2007 15:05:26 GMT -5
i love jeff too but some of these comments are a little homer... no he isnt better than Durant. He's putting up numbers similar to Carmelo and Lebron during their early rookie seasons. If Jeff or any other rookie had the responsibility of being the go-to guy from the jump... i guarantee their numbers wouldn't be better than kevins. Let's be honest about it. Jeff is an excellent complimentary player with great skills... kevin is a star and is already the most talented player on his team at 19. I have watched every Sonics game so far. If you have watched the games, you would clearly see that Jeff is the better "basketball player" than Durant. Durant is the better scorer. There is a big difference. Jeff is only 2 years older than Durant. Those are the benefits of staying in school. Guys like Jeff and Roy started college early so that has helped them bigtime. They can stay in school for 3-4 years, and really become NBA ready. The media tries to hype up a guy like Mayo as some sort of prodigy, but Mayo is already 20(same as ROy). This will also help kids like Monroe if they want to stay in college multiple years. They are playing ahead of their real class, so they can stay in school and become better players.
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balla
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,059
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Jeff!
Nov 28, 2007 15:07:19 GMT -5
Post by balla on Nov 28, 2007 15:07:19 GMT -5
Durant is a better shooter, but that is about it. Jeff is a better player otherwise. They would complement each other if P.J put them on the floor together. It makes no sense to have Durant and Wilkins out there at the same time. Jeff would do much better on a team that passes the ball and has some kind of offensive structure. His role is not clear and changes game to game. He still is not hitting his jumpers, but once he does, his game will hit another level. BINGO.
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Jeff!
Nov 29, 2007 9:25:11 GMT -5
Post by HoyaAtHeart on Nov 29, 2007 9:25:11 GMT -5
i love jeff too but some of these comments are a little homer... no he isnt better than Durant. He's putting up numbers similar to Carmelo and Lebron during their early rookie seasons. If Jeff or any other rookie had the responsibility of being the go-to guy from the jump... i guarantee their numbers wouldn't be better than kevins. Let's be honest about it. Jeff is an excellent complimentary player with great skills... kevin is a star and is already the most talented player on his team at 19. I have watched every Sonics game so far. If you have watched the games, you would clearly see that Jeff is the better "basketball player" than Durant. Durant is the better scorer. There is a big difference. Jeff is only 2 years older than Durant. Those are the benefits of staying in school. Guys like Jeff and Roy started college early so that has helped them bigtime. They can stay in school for 3-4 years, and really become NBA ready. The media tries to hype up a guy like Mayo as some sort of prodigy, but Mayo is already 20(same as ROy). This will also help kids like Monroe if they want to stay in college multiple years. They are playing ahead of their real class, so they can stay in school and become better players. has nothing to do with the mere fact of being in school longer. Its program specific...Georgetown helped Jeff to craft an all around game. You can't say that if Jeff went to any other school he'd be what he is. As it seems like it is NEVER mentioned...there have been many college stars who flopped in the league. I look at everything at a case by case situation. I can't vouch for "college experience" automatically makes you better than someone without it. Ask Cleveland if they'd rather have Josh Smith right now...instead of Luke Jackson who is no longer in the league. There is a flip side to everything. As for the Jeff vs. Kevin debate...you can nitpick categories of players all you want. Kevin is still the better player. If you want to look at it from that logic... then Jeff is the best player on the team, no? Jeff is only averaging more rebounds than Kevin... which he should seeing as though Kevin is a shooting guard. Kevin is averaging more everything else so I'm not even exactly sure what that statement is even based on. I too have seen all of their games. Once again...I ask... If Jeff or any other rookie had the responsibility that Kevin has... would his numbers be any better... or even the same?
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,899
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Jeff!
Nov 29, 2007 12:22:24 GMT -5
Post by SFHoya99 on Nov 29, 2007 12:22:24 GMT -5
Per game stats are a horrible way to evaluate a player.
Right now, and I stress the right now, Durant shoots his team out of games. That's quickly changing, but over the first couple of weeks, Durant might've been the most responsible on his team for the Sonics losing.
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Jeff!
Nov 29, 2007 12:44:31 GMT -5
Post by SoCal Hoya85 on Nov 29, 2007 12:44:31 GMT -5
Isn't Durant also seeing double teams though?
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Jeff!
Nov 29, 2007 12:49:04 GMT -5
Post by SFHoya99 on Nov 29, 2007 12:49:04 GMT -5
Isn't Durant also seeing double teams though? Not that I've seen and I've seen about 4-5 games. Until very recently, he's been settling for jumpers and generally being a black hole. He's not productive enough yet to warrant a double team. He is a better defender than someone his age and strength usually is because of his length, but that's about it.
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RDF
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 8,835
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Jeff!
Nov 29, 2007 13:03:33 GMT -5
Post by RDF on Nov 29, 2007 13:03:33 GMT -5
The debate is silly right now--you can start to make judgements on players after 3 years in league--when they are approaching their next contract--but right now? It's more important the kids learn how to play the NBA game, and it's more important for their team to get them experience, while losing to add another key player to mix--instead of being just good enough to win some games that will prevent them from getting another great player instead of just a good, role player.
One thing about Durant--he never faced good defense in Big XII--said it last year--will say it again--what they consider tough defense in that league isn't what those of us who follow Big East ball consider tough--look what USC did to Durant and they had a former NBA Coach/good defensive coach in Tim Floyd. Does that mean I think Durant stinks? Hell no--he's a great player/prospect, but he needs to adjust to more physical defense, and he'll learn you can't just hoist 3's at any time--need to know that shot is available all of the time--and he's helping the opposition by shooting so many 3's.
Jeff is seen as this 25 year old rookie role player by many--and so many are shocked to know how YOUNG he is as well. He's played for a better coach, in a better league, and as many know is more prepared all around--he'll be greater then many expect and years from now most will realize that dumping Ray Allen for Jeff was a great move--by Sonics--not the Celts. Celts have a 2 year window--and Sonics weren't going to win anything in 2 years--so might as well get a great 6'9 player to pair with Durant and be in position to add another great player this year--for future, then build around old guys who aren't good enough to carry a franchise.
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balla
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,059
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Jeff!
Nov 29, 2007 13:42:42 GMT -5
Post by balla on Nov 29, 2007 13:42:42 GMT -5
People that keep saying Durant gets double teamed, clearly have not been watching the Sonics. Durant does not get double teamed. He just shoots a lot of bad shots. Durant gets a lot fo 1 on 1 iso plays on the wing. He might dribble into a double team, but teams are not running to take the ball out of his hand.
It is obvious that Jeff's all around development had a lot to do with 3 years at GU, as opposed to playing in another program.
There is no best player on the Sonics. They are the Sonics. Kevin does not rebound or even try to play D. When he catches the ball, the ball stops moving. Being a scorer does not equate to being a better basketball player. Durant is not the defense focal point of the opponent. The funny thing is that the only player on the Sonics that teams try to touble team is Wilcox. Durant is a one dimensional player right now. Durant is scoring a lot late in games, once the game is already over. He is driving to the basket and getting some points. This is after he has shot his team out of the game in the first 3qtrs. The look on PJ's face is classic when Kevin is jacking shots. I guess it is better than Szerbiak.
On a bad team, someone still has to score.
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bmartin
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,459
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Jeff!
Nov 29, 2007 14:30:46 GMT -5
Post by bmartin on Nov 29, 2007 14:30:46 GMT -5
I was not able to watch, but followed the last two games online. On Tuesday, it appeared that P.J. had to put Jeff on Kobe Bryant after Kobe scored at will against Wilkins and Durant, and then last night Jeff had a turn guarding Dwight Howard after Howard scored at will against Wilcox and Kurt Thomas picked up too many fouls.
How many players could guard Kobe Bryant on one night and Dwight Howard the next? While Jeff could not shut either of them down, he seems to have done a better job on them than his teammates had done. He also took it to them on the offensive end and drew shooting fouls from both Bryant and Howard.
From Dime Magazine blog on foxsports: Damien Wilkins, welcome to Kobe Bryant’s oubliette. We saw this one coming a mile away — the last time L.A. and Seattle played, back in the preseason, Kobe worked Damien over something awful. This time it was more of the same: spins, pull-ups, drives, threes. After a while, P.J. Carlesimo switched Kevin Durant onto Kobe (something he’d purposely avoided in that aforementioned preseason game). Mamba immediately gave KD one of his one-hand pump fakes, predictably getting him in the air and whistled for a foul. Later on Jeff Green took his turn on Kobe (35 pts, 8 rebs, 6 asts), but actually didn’t do a bad job. Kobe found Wilkins back in front of him in close-out time, though, and mercifully put him (and Seattle) away...
Also, you can't compare Jeff's aggregate or per game stats to Durant's. Durant plays almost a full quarter more per game and uses up a much higher percentage of possessions than Jeff does.
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royski
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Jeff!
Nov 29, 2007 14:45:49 GMT -5
Post by royski on Nov 29, 2007 14:45:49 GMT -5
Not to nitpick, but Durant played against Kansas in college, which by all measures has one of the best defenses in the game.
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balla
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Jeff!
Nov 29, 2007 14:52:10 GMT -5
Post by balla on Nov 29, 2007 14:52:10 GMT -5
Not to nitpick, but Durant played against Kansas in college, which by all measures has one of the best defenses in the game. You are trying to nitpick if you name just Kansas. Like Van Gundy said last week. Right now Durant is basically one dimensional. He will get much better and will be a future star. Jeff has a very high ceiling also. They are really both small forwards, unless the Sonics change to a Sun's type style. But Jeff has held his own at the 4 spot, except against Duncan. Jeff tried to post up Duncan and hit a little hook on him. Uhhh no. Jeff is playing more minutes at the 4 than the 3 right now. A lot of games it depends if Wally is bricking or hitting.
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RDF
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 8,835
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Jeff!
Nov 29, 2007 15:01:10 GMT -5
Post by RDF on Nov 29, 2007 15:01:10 GMT -5
Not to nitpick, but Durant played against Kansas in college, which by all measures has one of the best defenses in the game. I've seen Kansas play--and no matter what the stats say--I don't call that great defense. Big XII has a lot of bad offensive teams or had I should say--and KU's defensive stats rise due to that. Notice when they face Big East teams--or teams who play a Big East style--they often lose? DePaul last year. UCLA in Tournament--who has Howland. Roy Williams often suffers same fate at UNC and did at Kansas. It's not as physical as they are used to and buckets don't come as easy. When game is free flowing--KU is tough to beat--same with UNC, once it gets tough, the Jayhawks are in trouble. Remember the Big XII had a rep for a "great defensive league" last year--and I saw bad offensive teams like Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Texas Tech, Missouri, Baylor, Iowa State, Colorado, KSU, and A&M was mediocre offensively, as was KSU, but you had KU and Texas who were strong offensively. It's not hard to appear to be a great defensive team when your league consists of offensive teams like that. Now each year is different--so I won't judge the Big XII this year--but I wasn't in awe of Durant after watching that league last year as many--he's a great talent but seeing him early in year against teams who got after him--in Coaches vs Cancer Tournament, or NCAA tournament--it was apparent the Big XII defensive prowess as a league was a bit overstated. Texas Tech had a rep and watching them play BC--they were an awful basketball team on both ends of court.
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royski
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,297
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Jeff!
Nov 29, 2007 15:01:26 GMT -5
Post by royski on Nov 29, 2007 15:01:26 GMT -5
Alright, then lets go by Pomeroy rank for adjusted defensive efficiency.
Kansas had the #1 defense in the nation. Texas A&M had the #10 defense in the nation. Oklahoma had the #17 defense in the nation. Kansas State had the #32 defense in the nation. All in the top 10% of college basketball. Lets compare them to the Big East.
UConn clocks in at #7, the best D in the Big East. Louisville is #16. Nova was #18. We were #20. Pitt, Syracuse and Marquette were also all in the top 10% of college basketball.
Texas played 8 games against these foes. We played 10. I dont see the huge difference in qualities of defense. How's that?
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balla
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Jeff!
Nov 29, 2007 15:08:29 GMT -5
Post by balla on Nov 29, 2007 15:08:29 GMT -5
who
The Big 12 is not a great basketball conference no matter what some stats show. Kansas has been the only consistently good program for the last 10-20 years. OU and UT had a few moments.
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royski
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Jeff!
Nov 29, 2007 15:13:35 GMT -5
Post by royski on Nov 29, 2007 15:13:35 GMT -5
Us- 3 games against Villanova, 3 games against Pitt, 1 each with Marquette, Pitt, L'ville and Cuse. Thats 10.
Texas- 2 against Oklahoma, 2 against Kansas, 2 against A&M and I miscounted, 1 against K-State. Although they played Nova as well, so 7/8.
Durant was only there for one year, history is irrelevant. Only that last year serves as a basis for comparison. If you want to say that Jeff was better prepped for the NBA by JTIII than Durant was by Barnes, feel free, I totally agree. But it wasn't because Jeff was playing better defenses. He was playing in a better offense that taught him to exploit good defenses in the right way, rather than just out talent them the way Durant attempted to. (And failed to against Kansas and A&M as the 1-3 record with a win in 2OTs shows.)
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balla
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Jeff!
Nov 29, 2007 15:15:40 GMT -5
Post by balla on Nov 29, 2007 15:15:40 GMT -5
Are you really trying to make a Big East vs Big 12 argument.
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royski
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Jeff!
Nov 29, 2007 15:17:47 GMT -5
Post by royski on Nov 29, 2007 15:17:47 GMT -5
Of course not, we're a vastly superior offensive conference, and we have much better depth. However, when it comes to top defenses we're comparable.
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balla
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Jeff!
Nov 29, 2007 15:20:04 GMT -5
Post by balla on Nov 29, 2007 15:20:04 GMT -5
I understand what you are trying to say, but you are making the old Big 10 football argument.
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royski
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Jeff!
Nov 29, 2007 15:21:02 GMT -5
Post by royski on Nov 29, 2007 15:21:02 GMT -5
I'm sorry, I don't follow college football much so I don't know what that argument is.
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balla
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Jeff!
Nov 29, 2007 15:34:59 GMT -5
Post by balla on Nov 29, 2007 15:34:59 GMT -5
I'm sorry, I don't follow college football much so I don't know what that argument is. Big 10 fans always want to say how great the defense their teams play. The reality it is a weak conference with skewed stats. On paper these teams stats look strong, but then they play against Pac 10 and SEC teams and reality sets in. There is a reason that the Big 12 has not won a BBall NC in 2 decades. They get exposed in the Tourny, both on D and O.
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