bubbrubbhoya
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Post by bubbrubbhoya on May 30, 2007 17:02:59 GMT -5
Dikembe Mutombo was a highly prized recruit before JTII sent Kevin Bacon to find him, and he's always had a great shot.
(Sarcasm)
Just saying.
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TahoeSkin
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Post by TahoeSkin on May 30, 2007 19:47:15 GMT -5
Hi Hoyaskin!! You are doing an absolutely fantastic job. Your, summaries are great. These sites are an added bonus for us. Keep up the great work. You should have your salary tripled!! Unfortunately 3 times 0 is still 0. Jerry Thanks Jerry, but I get a little extra for time and a half.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on May 30, 2007 20:52:50 GMT -5
I certainly trust the staff as to who they offer. JT III has an excellent track record in evaluating talent and knowing what the team needs.
All I am saying is that as a fan, I would be excited to land this kid. Recruiting is an imperfect combination of guesswork as to how a player's skill, athletic ability, attitude, and general upside. I would tend to say that you recruit the athlete more than the basketball player, although there has to be a requisiste level of basketball skill to qualify. If you are a high quality athlete who just cannot play (i.e. Omari Faulkner), the athletic ability is irrelevant. In the JT III offense, there is generally a higher requirement for skill than perhaps a team like Florida or UNC tends to require.
The tricky thing about a 7'4" guy is that he doesn't need to be too good of an athlete or have that much skill to still impact the game. In many ways, if he has some degree of physical ability and a desire to compete, he can be a presence by merely being in the right place and doing certain basic things, such as putting his hands up. So, the real questions are:
1) Does this kid have enough physical ability 2) Does he have the right work ethic and ability to learn/ be coached to allow the team to benefit from his raw ability, and 3) What type of needs does the team have for that type of player?
In time we should have more answers to these questions and have a better idea of where Jacob stands as a recruit. But for now, he has my attention.
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TahoeSkin
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Post by TahoeSkin on May 30, 2007 22:29:52 GMT -5
I certainly trust the staff as to who they offer. JT III has an excellent track record in evaluating talent and knowing what the team needs. All I am saying is that as a fan, I would be excited to land this kid. Recruiting is an imperfect combination of guesswork as to how a player's skill, athletic ability, attitude, and general upside. I would tend to say that you recruit the athlete more than the basketball player, although there has to be a requisiste level of basketball skill to qualify. If you are a high quality athlete who just cannot play (i.e. Omari Faulkner), the athletic ability is irrelevant. In the JT III offense, there is generally a higher requirement for skill than perhaps a team like Florida or UNC tends to require. The tricky thing about a 7'4" guy is that he doesn't need to be too good of an athlete or have that much skill to still impact the game. In many ways, if he has some degree of physical ability and a desire to compete, he can be a presence by merely being in the right place and doing certain basic things, such as putting his hands up. So, the real questions are: 1) Does this kid have enough physical ability 2) Does he have the right work ethic and ability to learn/ be coached to allow the team to benefit from his raw ability, and 3) What type of needs does the team have for that type of player? In time we should have more answers to these questions and have a better idea of where Jacob stands as a recruit. But for now, he has my attention. I think you're right on target HoyaLove. To answer your questions, from all accounts: 1) Does this kid have enough physical ability? I definitely think so. Personally, I think that if you compared Roy and Jakub at their high school senior level, Jakub is way ahead of Roy athletically, from what I've seen of them on video at those similar stages in life. Roy could barely move until just this past year, while Jakub, even lacking proper conditioning, moves way better than Roy was moving when he was a HS senior. Let’s not forget that Jakub’s ONLY been playing basketball for 2 years now. So, I think Jakub as a freshman in college next year can be just as good if not better than Roy defensively and on the boards, IF he keeps working on his conditioning. As for post moves and shooting skills, IMHO that’s just developing the right muscle memory. The more you practice it, focusing on applying proper technique, the better your shot and post moves become. You can get better at nearly any basketball skill if you practice it enough. Achieving a height of 7’4”, on the other hand, is extremely hard to learn. 2) Does he have the right work ethic and ability to learn/ be coached to allow the team to benefit from his raw ability? The answer here is a resounding yes! According to one of Jakub’s coaches, Jakub is extremely interested in learning and being coached. They’re practicing, 6 days a week, until October 26th, when the season starts. We’ll have to wait and see, but I still think Jakub can be a terrific player. Look at the turnaround experienced by Big Roy, when he started focusing on conditioning. 3) What type of needs does the team have for that type of player? This is a no brainer. I think the Hoyas could certainly use 7 footer in 2008. Macklin, Braswell, and Simms are a bit smallish to man the post in the Big East, IMHO.
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idhoya
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Post by idhoya on May 31, 2007 9:14:25 GMT -5
I don't think a 6'10, 6'9 and 6'10 front line is smallish. A little light, but not smallish. That said, you can't teach height and we know III will coach guys up.
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TahoeSkin
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Post by TahoeSkin on May 31, 2007 10:55:17 GMT -5
I don't think a 6'10, 6'9 and 6'10 front line is smallish. A little light, but not smallish. That said, you can't teach height and we know III will coach guys up. Uh, I was not speaking solely about height. In the post, height, weight and strength are all important. While Macklin and Simms have been reported to be 6'10", I've seen reports that they are really only 6'9", and Braswell has been reported to be only 6'8". But their height doesn't really matter if they don't have the weight and strength to establish position and prevent from getting pushed around in the post. To this point, I understand Macklin, Braswell and Simms all recognize this problem and, perhaps by no coincidence, have recently been quoted as saying that putting on weight and getting stronger are off-season priorities for each of them. So my point still stands: Macklin, Simms and Braswell are a bit smallish at this point in time to play the Big East Center position, IMHO. Not that they won't if they have to, but I'd feel a lot better having someone in there who's athletic and 7'4", 285 lbs. We'll just have to wait and see.
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idhoya
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Post by idhoya on May 31, 2007 11:34:45 GMT -5
I'd rather have smaller and skilled than Shawn Bradley.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on May 31, 2007 12:28:04 GMT -5
This kid is closer to Pascal Fleury then Roy Hibbert and if you can't see difference between Jakub and Roy--at the same stage, then I can't remind you of the offensive talent that Roy possessed as a HS player--he could always shoot/finish around hole in HS--and he was worth taking for that reason alone. It's a SKILL sport--and if a guy is awkward but has skill--you take a risk--if he's big, athletic and can't play--you don't.
This will be settled over the Summer--but as IDHoya said--give me the skill players no matter what size they are.
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bubbrubbhoya
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Post by bubbrubbhoya on May 31, 2007 12:46:08 GMT -5
This kid is closer to Pascal Fleury then Roy Hibbert and if you can't see difference between Jakub and Roy--at the same stage, then I can't remind you of the offensive talent that Roy possessed as a HS player--he could always shoot/finish around hole in HS--and he was worth taking for that reason alone. It's a SKILL sport--and if a guy is awkward but has skill--you take a risk--if he's big, athletic and can't play--you don't. This will be settled over the Summer--but as IDHoya said--give me the skill players no matter what size they are. RDF, you're kidding yourself. No I haven't seen this guy play, nor has 99.9% of this board, but I have watched Roy Hibbert since he began playing for the Hoyas. It doesn't matter what the analysts were saying; at the beginning of his Freshman year, Roy had a loooooonnnggg way to go. Does anyone else out there remember the game in McD his frosh year (against Eastern Carolina?)? After seeing that game, we could have hoped beyond hope that Roy would be as good as he is today, but no one in his right mind could have expected half the improvement he's exhibited. No one in McD that day would have called Roy a "skill player." Guess what? After two years with JTIII at Big Man U, no one can say that he isn't a "skill player." Chuck your silly Rivals analysis out the window. This guy has barely played organized basketball, so he might be a flop, but also there is a big chance that his potential for improvement is vastly underrated. In addition, a certain 7' 2" Experience has proven over the past 3 years that desire and work ethic combined with JTIII and his staff prove more than a match for "scouts'" analysis. And oh yeah, you can't teach height. Just saying.
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Filo
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Post by Filo on May 31, 2007 13:07:39 GMT -5
I'd rather have smaller and skilled than Shawn Bradley. And on a related note, it's too bad for the Sixers that you weren't working in their front office in 1993.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on May 31, 2007 13:57:13 GMT -5
This kid is closer to Pascal Fleury then Roy Hibbert and if you can't see difference between Jakub and Roy--at the same stage, then I can't remind you of the offensive talent that Roy possessed as a HS player--he could always shoot/finish around hole in HS--and he was worth taking for that reason alone. It's a SKILL sport--and if a guy is awkward but has skill--you take a risk--if he's big, athletic and can't play--you don't. This will be settled over the Summer--but as IDHoya said--give me the skill players no matter what size they are. RDF, you're kidding yourself. No I haven't seen this guy play, nor has 99.9% of this board, but I have watched Roy Hibbert since he began playing for the Hoyas. It doesn't matter what the analysts were saying; at the beginning of his Freshman year, Roy had a loooooonnnggg way to go. Does anyone else out there remember the game in McD his frosh year (against Eastern Carolina?)? After seeing that game, we could have hoped beyond hope that Roy would be as good as he is today, but no one in his right mind could have expected half the improvement he's exhibited. No one in McD that day would have called Roy a "skill player." Guess what? After two years with JTIII at Big Man U, no one can say that he isn't a "skill player." . Roy was able to shoot threes before he got to Gtown. Roy was able to dribble the ball before he got to Georgetown. Roy was able to dribble between his legs before he got to Georgetown. Roy was able to make pinpoint passes before he got to Georgetown. Without a doubt III has made Roy better but stop acting as if Roy came to GU with nothing in his arsenal. III said the reasons why Roy was not redshirted was 1)because the team needed big men and 2) Roy had SKILLS for a big man that III thought could work within his offensive scheme. Also most of Roy's improvement has come about as a result of Roy's hard work. Period. There is no guarantee that Mr Kusmieruk would even bring the same work ethic. Perhas a guy who improves like Roy happen once every 20 or more years. Maybe even longer. JT II said he had NEVER seen a player make such a leap in terms of improvement. Never. And how long has he been around? About 15 years ago some people thought Pascal Fleurry could be the next Mutombo. It didn't matter that Fleurry had no rep coming out of canada because Mutombo had little rep as well. Wake Forest fans thought that McDAA Loren Woods could be better than Ti Duncan because Woods was a high school star. But he never came close to Duncan. The lesson here is that guys like Mutombo, Duncan and even Roy are the exception not the rule. Perhaps Jakub is the exception as well but we can't know that and in this case I wouldn't take a chance unless he decided to be a non-scholarship player for the first two seasons. What I do know is that III isn't some magician who can make any dude into a lottery pick. Despite Roy's numerous negatives during is hig school days and his first season with Gtown, he still had a skill level that most folks either ignored or were unaware of. And in high school he was still putting up a good number of points when healthy. And despite being a Big Stiff he still was picked for the All Tournament Team in the two or three major high school tourneys his Gtown Prep team participated in his senior season (and those tournaments included a slew of big time players, a couple of which went straight to the pros). Despite his injury Roy put up around 12 to 14 points per contest his junior season and around 20 his senior season when he led Gtown Prep to its best season ever. He led the Little Hoyas in points, rebounds and blocks. The only regular season loss the team had at the hands of an area team came when Roy was out sick. And when Gtown Prep whipped up on the two WCAC teams it faced that year, Roy was clearly the most dominant player on the floor. If you are saying that 3-points-per-game Jakub is in that same category then you are smokin' something. Perhaps he is more fluid than Roy at a same point. But Jakub doesn't appear to do much on the floor and isn't that what counts?
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on May 31, 2007 14:13:12 GMT -5
thanks for the info MCI. I've been following the team for years but only recruiting and in the detail that this board provides for a couple years. the way people talk about roy you would think roy was just tall and nothing else coming out of highschool. clearly the posters on the board have painted that picture of him.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on May 31, 2007 14:32:20 GMT -5
Bubbrub,
While I think you are right for not writing off JK like id and RDF seem to be, there were a TON of indications Roy would be very good.
He was very good in high school, won IAC player of the year and even dominated players like Maarty Luenen in a winter tourney in Oregon. His lone poor game was against Oak Hill, but they are always stacked.
MCI always thought he had huge potential. III always did - his pronouncement of "one of the best players in basketball" was, I believe, when he was still a frosh. One of the announcers freshman year said if he stayed four he'd be the #1 pick.
If you watched him, yes, he disappeared at times, but you could see the potential. He had nice moves (if awkward looking), a great touch, tree trunks for legs and soft hands.
Now, taller players develop later so i think it is way premature to say we are merely recruiting this guy as a favor to a coach. They are seriously keeping tabs. But his stats say that either his coach is unfairly keeping him on the bench, or he isn't where Roy was his late junior year and senior year.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on May 31, 2007 14:42:52 GMT -5
This kid is closer to Pascal Fleury then Roy Hibbert and if you can't see difference between Jakub and Roy--at the same stage, then I can't remind you of the offensive talent that Roy possessed as a HS player--he could always shoot/finish around hole in HS--and he was worth taking for that reason alone. It's a SKILL sport--and if a guy is awkward but has skill--you take a risk--if he's big, athletic and can't play--you don't. This will be settled over the Summer--but as IDHoya said--give me the skill players no matter what size they are. RDF, you're kidding yourself. No I haven't seen this guy play, nor has 99.9% of this board, but I have watched Roy Hibbert since he began playing for the Hoyas. It doesn't matter what the analysts were saying; at the beginning of his Freshman year, Roy had a loooooonnnggg way to go. Does anyone else out there remember the game in McD his frosh year (against Eastern Carolina?)? After seeing that game, we could have hoped beyond hope that Roy would be as good as he is today, but no one in his right mind could have expected half the improvement he's exhibited. No one in McD that day would have called Roy a "skill player." Guess what? After two years with JTIII at Big Man U, no one can say that he isn't a "skill player." Chuck your silly Rivals analysis out the window. This guy has barely played organized basketball, so he might be a flop, but also there is a big chance that his potential for improvement is vastly underrated. In addition, a certain 7' 2" Experience has proven over the past 3 years that desire and work ethic combined with JTIII and his staff prove more than a match for "scouts'" analysis. And oh yeah, you can't teach height. Just saying. Ignatius is that you? MCI and I were two of Roy's biggest fans back in HS and the difference in him and Jakub and many other tall players is what MCI Said--he's got skill--and always had touch. He also broke his foot and was growing so fast for his body--remember he was 16 years old when he graduated HS--that he was going to be awkward. The difference between being a stiff--and being called one--is that STIFFS HAVE NO GAME. That doesn't mean they all are unathletic either. Some are guys who are athletic and just can't play--and from what I've seen of Jakub at this time-he falls into that category. He could develop--but the program is at a different place right now--you don't need to sign big men to just have someone who is taller then 7'0--sorry lic. You can recruit skilled big men who bring more game to table and as MCI said--for every Roy Hibbert--there are 100's of Pascal Fleury's.
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bubbrubbhoya
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Post by bubbrubbhoya on May 31, 2007 14:47:16 GMT -5
Bubbrub, While I think you are right for not writing off JK like id and RDF seem to be, there were a TON of indications Roy would be very good. He was very good in high school, won IAC player of the year and even dominated players like Maarty Luenen in a winter tourney in Oregon. His lone poor game was against Oak Hill, but they are always stacked. MCI always thought he had huge potential. III always did - his pronouncement of "one of the best players in basketball" was, I believe, when he was still a frosh. One of the announcers freshman year said if he stayed four he'd be the #1 pick. If you watched him, yes, he disappeared at times, but you could see the potential. He had nice moves (if awkward looking), a great touch, tree trunks for legs and soft hands. Now, taller players develop later so i think it is way premature to say we are merely recruiting this guy as a favor to a coach. They are seriously keeping tabs. But his stats say that either his coach is unfairly keeping him on the bench, or he isn't where Roy was his late junior year and senior year. Thanks. Good post.
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Filo
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Post by Filo on May 31, 2007 15:06:39 GMT -5
You guys must admit, though, that it is not just the Hoyatalk board that is painting the picture of Roy as completely useless, or at least in need of tons of work, before he got to GU. Both JTII and JTIII have numerous quotes out there to that effect.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on May 31, 2007 15:56:40 GMT -5
No one's denying that. That's why II was praying Vernon Goodridge would pick his son's program. And its why II almost threw a party on the radio when Vernon Macklin committed to GU. There was a lot of doubt about Roy. Our point is that Roy did show skill (which fans seem to ignore because they are more interested in big men dunking) and that Roy put up good numbers in high school and made a bit of a anme for himself in tournaments. Has Kusimeruk done any of this?
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on May 31, 2007 16:12:37 GMT -5
No one's denying that. That's why II was praying Vernon Goodridge would pick his son's program. And its why II almost threw a party on the radio when Vernon Macklin committed to GU. There was a lot of doubt about Roy. Our point is that Roy did show skill (which fans seem to ignore because they are more interested in big men dunking) and that Roy put up good numbers in high school and made a bit of a anme for himself in tournaments. Has Kusimeruk done any of this? As the link I posted showed, at this point prepstars had Roy ranked ahead of Big Baby, Malik Hairston, and Randolph Morris to name a few. Sure it's only one example of a publication ranking Roy at the same point in time as Jakub (and I don't know how old Jakub is but when that article was written Roy was FIFTEEN) but it's a pretty good indication that there was SOMETHING there. I mean many big men need to get stronger their first year, especially really big men. But as MCI points out, not all big men have the upside Roy showed very early and Jakub is one of many other big men like that. Hey maybe he'll be great. If he makes huge strides, get him. If not, send him to High Point to battle Kenny George in an awkward, slow battle.
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TahoeSkin
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Post by TahoeSkin on May 31, 2007 17:39:42 GMT -5
This kid is closer to Pascal Fleury then Roy Hibbert and if you can't see difference between Jakub and Roy--at the same stage, then I can't remind you of the offensive talent that Roy possessed as a HS player--he could always shoot/finish around hole in HS--and he was worth taking for that reason alone. It's a SKILL sport--and if a guy is awkward but has skill--you take a risk--if he's big, athletic and can't play--you don't. This will be settled over the Summer--but as IDHoya said--give me the skill players no matter what size they are. REF, I don't know if you were responding to my post or not, but if you were, I'll now correct you. I never compared Roy and Jakub offensively. Nope, never said word one about their relative shooting skills. What I DID say was that that "Jakub is way ahead of Roy athletically", if you compare Roy and Jakub at their high school senior level. And I still stand by that, because this past season was the first full year that I've seen Roy move anywhere near what Jakub now demonstrates "ATHLETICALLY." Motumbo was no athletic specimen either, and I'll probably agree with rubbhubbhoya that he certainly had/has to this day very little offensive skills. If you weren't responding to my post, then please just disregard.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on May 31, 2007 19:44:08 GMT -5
[ Motumbo was no athletic specimen either, and I'll probably agree with rubbhubbhoya that he certainly had/has to this day very little offensive skills. Mutombo may have had little offensive skill but he was a fantastic athlete. No, he did not have a great vertical, but he had great timing, could get up and down the floor like a 6'4 guard and could play all game long without appearing to get tired (just great stamina). Those are traits of a pretty good athlete.
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