joey0403p
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,586
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Post by joey0403p on May 24, 2007 13:38:08 GMT -5
Sweetney is every bit as good as the best Hoyas? PLEASE... What are you 7 years old? That comment is laughable. Sweets was in my class at g town and I can certainly appreciate his skill set. But every bit as good as the best Hoyas? You're are a joke. You shouldn't be allowed to post here anymore. That is the most ludacris statement I've every heard here and that includes comments made by Hifigator. At no point in your incoherant babblings were you even close to what could be considered a rational thought, I award you no points and may god have mercy on your soul.
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Post by TX Hoya on May 24, 2007 13:46:52 GMT -5
Sweetney is every bit as good as the best Hoyas? PLEASE... What are you 7 years old? That comment is laughable. Sweets was in my class at g town and I can certainly appreciate his skill set. But every bit as good as the best Hoyas? You're are a joke. You shouldn't be allowed to post here anymore. That is the most ludacris statement I've every heard here and that includes comments made by Hifigator. At no point in your incoherant babblings were you even close to what could be considered a rational thought, I award you no points and may god have mercy on your soul. agreed. while still very good, he's not in those ranks.
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Post by ExcitableBoy on May 24, 2007 14:07:07 GMT -5
Sweetney is every bit as good as the best Hoyas? PLEASE... What are you 7 years old? That comment is laughable. Sweets was in my class at g town and I can certainly appreciate his skill set. But every bit as good as the best Hoyas? You're are a joke. You shouldn't be allowed to post here anymore. That is the most ludacris statement I've every heard here and that includes comments made by Hifigator. At no point in your incoherant babblings were you even close to what could be considered a rational thought, I award you no points and may god have mercy on your soul. Alright, clown, instead of quoting movies that came out when you were in middle school, why don't you follow what is actually going on with Hoyas basketball these days. Sweetney was a part of the all century team. I'm not sure what your definition of "the best Hoyas" is, but that fits mine. Don't agree that Sweetney was one of the best players in Hoyas history? Great. That's your deal. Unforunately for you, others do and he his place among the all-time best Hoyas is secured.
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Post by HoyaLingus on May 24, 2007 14:14:52 GMT -5
Please note that joey0403p spells 'ludicrous' 'ludacris'.
That is all.
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GIGAFAN99
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on May 24, 2007 14:20:20 GMT -5
Scoring more on a great team is harder. However, you're completely ignoring that Sweetney's 12 ppg were as a freshman, and chalking up his increases simply to weaker teammates is ignoring the natural progression 90% of athletes make. I would agree with you that Sweetney is overrated if he was like Victor Page in his scoring -- shooting 40% and just getting by on volume. There are lots of guys like that in basketball -- whether it be Tony Campbell in Minnesota or Kelly Tripucka in Charlotte or Victor Page in 96-97. Sweetney scored 1.3 PPS his sophomore year. That's right around Jeff's effectiveness from last year ... except that Mike shot 100 more times. And faced constant double and triple teams. And had a coach who had no idea how to create open shots. He averaged 2 apg his senior year, but also over 3 blocks and about 2 steals. Those aren't numbers that increase with poor teammates. Mike's raw scoring might have gone up with lesser teammates and coaching, but his rate stats would have been Roy-like if he had III as a coach and Jeff Green as a teammate. (And before you object, think about it. Mike had devastating low post moves. How often have you seen Roy doubled? Mike had killer soft hands and established better post position -- how often had we passed up Roy because we couldn't get the ball in?). Defensively, you might be right on Mike. Hard to say. Offensively, he was not a product of being the only option. His rate stats prove that. No I get that but comparing his PPS to Jeff? Jeff, I can create the game-winner versus ND or Vandy out of nothing? Jeff, I can drain a three or throw down a putback dunk that makes BC cry for mama? Jeff, I finished 23rd in scoring average but was still BE PoY because I'm so awesome? That Jeff? Those aren't things Mike couldn't do because he didn't have support. Those are things Mike COULD NEVER do. As such you have to compare him to guys with the same sort of skill set and those guys are Ewing, Mourning, and yes, Roy. Sweets is nowhere near those guys in efficiency or just raw intimidation. Hey maybe if he had Jeff across from him, he would be better. But Roy is actually better at creating his own shot (phenomenal for a guy 7'2 versus 6'7 Sweetney) and a better passer. And fact is, he's just plain taller which means a whole lot in this game we call basketball. I like Sweets. He is one of the best Hoyas ever (in the general sense) but he's below those guys at the top. Big PF with great hands but no face-up game or outside shooting ability and a tad on the short side. A great player and a great guy, but I can't put him up there with the towering presence of the Hoya centers in the post nor can I can compare him favorably to the remarkably versatile Jeff Green. So Sweets and Othella are in the not shameful position of not quite being mentioned amongst the absolute top flight frontcourt players in Georgetown history.
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Post by redskins12820 on May 24, 2007 14:22:08 GMT -5
Please note that joey0403p spells 'ludicrous' 'ludacris'. That is all. Nice catch
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guru
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,605
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Post by guru on May 24, 2007 15:02:26 GMT -5
Sweetney was really good and in fact was a bit underrated by the nation at the time.
However, in a deliciously ironic twist, he is now overrated by many Hoya fans, especially those who were students at the Hilltop during his tenure.
I'm not sure on the delicious part, buI am sure about the irony.
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by SFHoya99 on May 24, 2007 15:22:02 GMT -5
Giga,
I perfectly accept that Mike is not in the same class as Ewing and Mourning, so why would I compare him to them again?
My point with Mike was I thought pretty clear, but you seemed to have missed it entirely.
Your theory is that Mike was inferior and only posted superior counting stats because he was playing with poor teammates and therefore got more opportunities to put up stats. While it is true that he got more shots, if your premise that Mike only got those counting stats because of opportunity, not talent were true, his efficiency stats would be worse as his teammates got worse.
They didn't. He had a fantastic 57% shooting percentage. He got fouled a lot and shot well from the line. He shot more than anyone on our current team and was still a highly efficient scorer.
And he did this without quality teammates or the Princeton.
You want me to compare Mike to Roy? That's easy. Roy has a ridiculous shooting percentage because a large % of his shots are uncontested dunks. Mike has every low post move Roy has and then some. He had softer hands, drew more contact and is stronger. Roy is double teamed, what, once every three games? Mike drew triple teams. I have zero doubt that Mike shoots a ridiculous percent like Roy if he played in this system. Esherick didn't even know what a UCLA cut is.
Where Roy is better than Mike is defensively. But offensively? Mike was unstoppable. He wasn't forcing shots or a volume shooter. To place him equal with Othella and Ruben is silly.
Finally, I can't seem to remember too many games where Mike played twenty minutes and couldn't squeeze off a shot. He was great from Day 1 and only improved. People seem to remember the best of Roy here. The Villanova game wasn't that long ago.
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GIGAFAN99
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,487
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on May 24, 2007 15:53:05 GMT -5
My premise is that he got more shots. He did. Why would his efficiency necessarily go down? You can say "Well he was triple teamed" alright that's fine but he's not triple teamed on every play (the team was inferior but not atrocious, they won 25, 19, and 19 games while he was here). So he just got a higher proportion of shots which is why he put up massive numbers. As the best player on the team, he had the luxury getting the most shots. That's cool.
Othella shot 57%, scored more points than Sweets in almost as many shots in 4 years as Sweets had in 3 years. Sweets just took more shots. That's what I'm saying. He was talented, no doubt. But his gaudy numbers are based on the fact that he took a ton more shots not that he made a higher percentage of those shots than Othella.
So Othella in many minds is a bust who never dominated and Sweets is a dominating force who ran into a dumb coach and bad teammates.
Vic did put up huge numbers because of pure volume WHILE his efficiency went down. It IS different than Sweets but my premise is more that they both are overrated based on that PPG column which is skewed by the fact that they were far and away getting the most shots.
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mapei
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by mapei on May 24, 2007 16:07:07 GMT -5
This is actually a pretty interesting discussion. What's it doing here?
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on May 24, 2007 16:12:23 GMT -5
Folks are kind of crazy (no offense) for suggesting Sweetney is overrated and that Othella was essentially as good. I love O but Sweetney was the player Othella was supposed to be. And no way could O take the attention of the defense that Sweetney dealt with and put up equally as good numbers. It ain't happening. Not taking anything away from O, just being honest and giving Sweets his due.
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guru
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by guru on May 24, 2007 16:25:05 GMT -5
Here's the thing: They each played at Georgetown under such totally different circumstances that it's almost impossible to compare them. Looking at their pro careers, they have fairly similar production, though Sweets has been a far bigger disappointment at the pro level. Poor guy looks like he's eating brats as fast as Chicago can produce them.
I agree that Sweetney was more of an offensive force than Harrington, but it's also true that the team relied on his offense far more than Othella's teams did. They were both fairly hideous on defense, so overall I would give the slight edge to Sweets, but only slight. His numbers DEFINITELY benefited from being the only decent offensive option on a team coached by a man who had no clue. The only answer when he played was always "Give the ball to Mike" or "That's crap!"
In any case, it's clear this thread is about to devolve into self-righteous people calling those who disagree crazy. Oh look - it already has.
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by SFHoya99 on May 24, 2007 16:58:42 GMT -5
Giga,
Re: efficiency and shots, that's an easy explanation.
For any player, as they take more shots, their efficiency usually goes down. Why? Because if you play a game and only take two shots, most likely those are the best two opportunities you have. As you take more shots, you generally take less effective shots. Roy already takes every uncontested dunk he gets, so if he were to take more shots, they'd be less easy shots than uncontested dunks.
Furthermore, exacerbating Sweetney's situation is that none of his teammates were threats. Whereas Roy and other players get uncontested layups off other people being double-teamed or backdoors or screens, Sweetney was the one getting double teamed.
I don't think Othella is a bust at all.
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mapei
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,088
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Post by mapei on May 24, 2007 18:35:59 GMT -5
I was always a bit disappointed in O. I think it was because I watched a TV interview with Big John when O was being recruited or was a freshman, and JT said that he would be the next great Hoya big man in the tradition of Patrick, Alonzo, and Mutombo. Those were tough acts to follow, and I thought he was never close to being that. If I had had more reasonable expectations, I might not have been disappointed at all.
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GIGAFAN99
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on May 24, 2007 19:49:35 GMT -5
I was always a bit disappointed in O. I think it was because I watched a TV interview with Big John when O was being recruited or was a freshman, and JT said that he would be the next great Hoya big man in the tradition of Patrick, Alonzo, and Mutombo. Those were tough acts to follow, and I thought he was never close to being that. If I had had more reasonable expectations, I might not have been disappointed at all. Bingo. For all the the stats and anecdotes, I don't think enough can be said that an 18-year old kid going for 17 and 9 and shooting 57% for an NIT finalist is an utter failure in 1993 while a 20-year old going for 23 and 10 shooting 55% for an NIT finalist is a a guy who needs a better coach/supporting cast in 2003. I know you don't think Othella is a bust SF. But I do think Sweets benefits greatly from his era. There are still people who think Wes "I play for a soda-sponsored barnstorming team in the Phillipines" Wilson could have been an NBA player with a better coach despite the obvious evidence to the contrary that he was the ONLY regular frontcourt player on the 2001 team that didn't play NBA (Ruben, Sweets) or NBDL/A-league Europe(Scruggs). I know we don't like to admit it but expectations play a huge role in how we think of Sweets versus O.
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Madgesdiq
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Post by Madgesdiq on May 25, 2007 10:34:32 GMT -5
Agree that Othella's G-town career > or = Sweets.
NBA careers bear that out. I think Othella had a 12/7 season in the NBA.
Othella accomplished as much with less early in his Gtown career
Putting either in the class of Mutombo at either level is ridiculous.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on May 25, 2007 11:02:45 GMT -5
If NBA careers are a determining factor than I guess Jerome Williams is about equal to Reggie Williams, huh? Lets get real.
Sweetney's points, rebounds, blocks, fg %, assists per game and Ibelieve steals per game averages over a career were all greater than O's. Period. Sweetney was a two time All Big East First Time Player in only three years of hoops. When Sweets was bumped or hit on the way to the hoop he tend to finish and pick up the foul. When that occurred to O he would let out a loud cry to get a call from the ref without finishing. Sweetney snared rebounds in traffic that O never could. And look what Sweetney did in three games against that Cuse front line of Carmello and Warrick. Those were as dominating a group of performances by a frontcourt player that the Hoyas have had over the last fifteen or twenty years. Othella NEVER put up anything like that. Yeah, we can talk about AI not dishing him the ball enough but the truth is if O was as good a college player as Sweetney the Hoyas would have gone to the Final Four with guys like Jerome, AI and Reid (and Page the following year) with Jahidi coming off the bench during Othella's years with the program.
Want more ?
Sweets had better hands. Sweets was a better passer. Sweets could play more minutes on the court. Sweets rarely if ever lost his cool. Sweets had better footowrk. Teams actually had gameplans to stop Sweetney!
I'll say again O is one of my top five Hoyas because of his heart, character and class. But its no shame for me to say he was not as good as Sweetney in terms of their college careers.
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