ALL TIME GTOWN TEAM

[spindoc932]

PG- Iverson
SG- Iverson
SF- Iverson
PF- Iverson
C- Ewing/ Mourning/Mutombo

sounds about right!! ;D

[jacko]

Wright and Freeman are starting. I don't care who else is on the team. The "ALL TIME GTOWN TEAM" needs a cut-throat point guard.

[nashvillehoyas]

My criteria does not allow for those that leave early.
1st team 2nd team
PG- Eric Floyd Duren
SG- Charles Smith Tillman
C- Ewing Mutombo
SF- Reggie Williams Wingate
PF- Alonzo Mourning Harrington

[hoyas4eva]

1st Team:
G - Floyd
G - Iverson
SF - Williams
PF - Mourning
C - Ewing

2nd Team:
PG - Duren
G/F - Shelton
SF - Green
PF - Sweetney
C - Mutombo

[hoyalove4ever]

1- Sleepy
2- Smitty
3- Reggie
4- Zo
5- Pat

[HealyHoya]

Tough...is this the kinda thing where we need to maintain some sort of integrity in the positions on the court? If not:

1. Sleepy
2. Iverson
3. Mourning
4. Ewing
5. Dikembe

If so:

1. Sleepy
2. Iverson
3. Reggie Williams
4. Mourning
5. Ewing

[hoyasexy]

healyhoya said:

Tough...is this the kinda thing where we need to maintain some sort of integrity in the positions on the court? If not:

1. Sleepy
2. Iverson
3. Mourning
4. Ewing
5. Dikembe

If so:

1. Sleepy
2. Iverson
3. Reggie Williams
4. Mourning
5. Ewing

I think you broke your own rule. Mourning was a center. Although we tried to run out Mourning and Mutombo at the same time, they could never get out of each other's way. Mourning was only comfortable when he was allowed to play center.

[SFHoya99]

Though there is no doubt Zo could play PF, and did during the two towers setup, he was a center. We've all seen the standard Allen-Sleepy-Reggie-Mourning-Ewing team... I'm curious to see who people would pick if we a) stuck to pure college positions and b) the team had to play as a team.

[HealyHoya]

sfhoya99 said:

Though there is no doubt Zo could play PF, and did during the two towers setup, he was a center. We've all seen the standard Allen-Sleepy-Reggie-Mourning-Ewing team... I'm curious to see who people would pick if we a) stuck to pure college positions and b) the team had to play as a team.

I went back and forth on that. Mourning played the 4 quite often and on both ends of the court. Dikembe was the more natural center at that time simply because he lacked the O-fensive skills to turn-and-face, dribble-penetrate and shoot the 8-10 foot jumper like Mourning.

To SF's point, can we count Sweetney as a 4? If so, there's a case to be make that he's the most talented PF to come through the program. That said, he spent a lot of his time on the offensive end in a conventional 5 role.

In terms of playing as a team:

1. Sleepy
2. Iverson (I'd prefer this to be the current Iverson vs. the GU era Iverson but, either way, he's the best scoring guard GU has seen).
3. Reggie Williams
4. Sweetney
5. Ewing

[BigMike]

Patrick Ewing is the greatest Georgetown player of all time. Jeff Green is the second best Georgetown player of all-time even if he doesn't come back next year.

Jeff Green did what no other Georgetown player could do since Ewing. Take Georgetown to a final four.

Green has to be on any all-time team list.

[SFHoya99]

bigmike said:

Patrick Ewing is the greatest Georgetown player of all time. Jeff Green is the second best Georgetown player of all-time even if he doesn't come back next year.

Jeff Green did what no other Georgetown player could do since Ewing. Take Georgetown to a final four.

Green has to be on any all-time team list.

That's the comp I was curious to see, along with throwing in Craig Shelton and Michael Graham.

I find the comparison between Jeff and Mike to be utterly impossible.

Mike has by far the dominant individual numbers. But that's a large part a function of the teams he played on.

Jeff has by far the better team results. But that's a large part a function of the teams he played on.

Remember, when Mike was a freshman, he had stats similar to Jeff's. And he had a team around him. Sure, Roy is better than Ruben, but Hunter and Sapp were similar, Braswell and Wallace similar in completely different ways. And they both had freshmen starting Small Forwards, though there's no doubt Summers is/was better.

That team was hamstrung by below average coaching but was still a pretty good team, and Mike was only a freshman. He does a Sweet Sixteen to his credit.

After that, the talent level on the team completely declined, and what talent we had didn't fit with each other and our coaching couldn't take advantage of it.

My point is not that the 2001 team is anywhere near the 2007 team. It isn't. My point is that it's a team game, and when Mike had some talent, even as a frosh, we won.

How much fault is it of his that the team didn't win in his sophomore and junior years? What would have Jeff averaged if his teammates were Wes Wilson and a young Brandon Bowman?

I just don't think you can easily tell.

[hoyalove4ever]

There is certainly a strong argument for Green; that said, I'm not sure that he is yet to be the second best Hoya of all-time.

The problem is that despite Jeff's amazing career, it is really hard to say that he has been better than 'Zo, if you put Zo at the four. If you put Zo as the backup center, I'd say it is between Jeff and Sweetney for the four slot. That's a hard call- I think Jeff may get the nod, but Sweetney was amazing- it's hard to say that he could have done any more during the time when he played.

If Jeff comes back next year, he'll probably earn the spot, hands down- perhaps even IF you consider 'Zo as a four. But right now, given 'Zo's presence on both ends of the court and his entire career, he should be above Jeff.

[HealyHoya]

Yeah, I'm not at all comfortable saying Green is the second best GU player all-time. I have 'Zo there.

Also, I think we're debating two different points here. First, is Green better than Sweetney, 'Zo, Reggie, Deke, Sleepy, etc. Second, who plays the four on the all-GU team?

Frankly, in terms of what I want a PF to look like/play like on a team (and for me, this is the difference ===>) where every other player at their respective position is excellent, then Mike gets the nod over Jeff.

With Sleepy and IA at the PG/SG positions, Jeff's ballhandling diminshes. With Sleepy tossing picture-perfect entry passes to Ewing in the post, Jeff's passing -- though incredible and still important -- becomes less integral.

This is a totally subjective, hypothetical exercise but on an all-GU squad, I take Sweetney at the 4 over Green. With Ewing at the 5, that means Mourning and Green get squeezed off my All-GU team because, though great, I'd rank them second at their positions behind Ewing and Sweetney, respectively.

Debatable? Yup.

[hoyalove4ever]

sfhoya99 said:

I find the comparison between Jeff and Mike to be utterly impossible.

Mike has by far the dominant individual numbers. But that's a large part a function of the teams he played on.

Jeff has by far the better team results. But that's a large part a function of the teams he played on.

Jeff is the perfect player for the III system: scoring forward who can past, shoot, and generally run the O from the high post or virtually anywhere on the court.

Mike was the perfect player for the Esh system: catch the ball and make an aggressive move.

Either Jeff or Mike would have been great players on any Hoya team. In comparing them to each other and other Hoyas, however, one must point out how the teams they played on highlighted their strengths.

In Mike's case, he needed to get a lot of touches inside, and that helped him put up crazy scoring numbers. In Jeff's case, the teammates he has had converted his great passes into points, giving him credit for one of his best skills.

If Mike had better teammates, he could have carried them a long way. He lacked the ability to make them better in the way that Jeff does. At the same time, he never played a passive big game.

Also consider that as Jeff has played on better teams, he has had more opportunitites to come up huge at clutch times.

I agree that at this point, the comparison is virtually impossible. They are both great Hoyas and we should be glad to have had the chance to watch them.

[RDF]

"Had more opportunities to come up clutch"--in reference to Jeff Green/Sweetney debate.

Remember the Esh error was often highlighted by close losses due to inept execution and poor coaching. Mike had the opportunities. Being Clutch isn't due to opportunities-it's due to what you actually DO on the court. Jeff Green could've passed out to Wallace against Vandy-did he? He could've passed out against ND, did he? He won the Nova and Pitt games by his will and taking over--which is what big time players do. He was dominant in East Regional Final--that is what you do.

I'll pose this question--are we judging based on how these kids excelled while at Georgetown or just overall talent?

TALENT WISE

1. Ewing/Iverson
1A. Mourning
2. Reggie Williams
3. Sleepy Floyd
4. Jeff Green
5. Dikembe Mutombo

HOYA CAREER

C-Ewing
PF-Green
SF-Reggie
SG-Iverson-he made Hoyas relevant in his years at GU--took them to Sweet 16 and Elite 8 after not being there since '89
PG--Sleepy Floyd

BEST OFFENSIVE PLAYERS

1. AI--guy is one of the greatest offensive players at any level EVER
2. Sleepy
3. Reggie
4. Sweetney--guy was money when he got ball in post
5. Hibbert--he's a dominantly skilled offensive player--best offensive center GU has had--due to his post moves and outside touch. Touch, drop steps, spin moves, passing, dribbling for his size, etc....

[hoyalove4ever]

We agree that during Sweetney's tenure there were lots of close losses; we'll agree to disagree about the reasons for that (and renew that debate at a later time).

It bears noting, however, that Sweetney rarely was the Hoya taking shots at the end of close games, as he was frequently doubled, and most defenses focused all of their energy on those last plays in keeping the ball out of his hands. Couple that with poor guard play, and he rarely had the chance to make the final shot. So I find it hard to fault him for making fewer clutch shots.

Also, I was really talking about making shots in big games (BET, NCAAs, etc), and Jeff has had more opportunities than Sweets in that department. Perhaps it is because Jeff is the better player, but given the vastly different supporting casts, it is hard to say.

[hoyatmf]

A few points about Mike v. Jeff. Mike didn't have the oppostunities that Jeff has had to be "clutch." Look no futher than the four overtime Notre Dame debacle. Did Mike ever touch the ball when we needed a big basket? No, instead Kevin dribbled around like a clown and then threw up a terrible shot. He hung 35pts, 20 boards, seven blocks and six assists on the irish. truly a game for the ages that would have been priceless to have won. Mike was a great finsher around the basket, a great offensive rebounder and had unbelievable touch at the free throw line. JT3's offense runs through Jeff and especially in the waning minutes, the ball goes through him. Also, our guards want Jeff to take the alst shot and pass him the ball; the same could not be said of Mike's teammates. RDF, I don't think anyone is trying to take anything away from Jeff, here; he has been incredibly clutch for us and has taken big shots when we needed him to. The point is that Mike didn't ahve the option of passing out or taking the big shot because he rarely had the ball in his hand in those situations to begin with. Esherick mangled so many og those games it's beyond me. In the BET we needed a bucket to win and our guards got the ball to Jeff and got out of his way. If Mike's teammates had done more of than in crunch time, maybe he would have been more "clutch." That said, my list may also show my age, but here it is (by position):

1. Floyd
2. Iverson
3. Green
4. Sweetney
5. Ewing

Jeff has always been a combo forward and more of a point forward in our offense. It's not inconceivable to put him at the three spot in this line-up. I've never seen Reggie Williams play, so this isn't a knock on Reggie. But it seems like having a team full of great scorers is not the best idea. Jeff and Pat don't necessarily have to score to be effective and Jeff could be the "glue" guy on this unit, making smart passes, setting screens and the like. Also, each of the front court positions has someone who can rebound and block shots. So If I were going to push someone out, it would be Reggie. (I'm not sure if knocking Reggie out is blasphemy or not). This is not based on talent, but rather on team dynamics. Go Hoyas!!!

[RDF]

Is it not a coach's job to get the ball to his best player or design a play for his best player and then have options off of that play? Did we ever see that at GU under Esh? We saw plays were guards held the ball, fired up shots at buzzer--and to me that's bailing out and not running an offense--but it's also up to the coach to call a play--you can't double team a guy if he's running pick and roll and Sweetney could've come out and run that--and when you are a dominant/clutch player--you DEMAND the ball. We all took issue with Jeff not doing so against OSU--because he did so often during the course of the season and it's when Hoyas took off and and went from contender to conference champion/Final Four team.

Georgetown didn't have poor guard play during Sweetney's time on Hilltop--they had inept coaching and silly, confusing substition patterns where nobody was able to get a rhythm due to inconsistent minutes and forcing "depth". Depth is the most misguided use in sports. It's great to have WHEN NEEDED. If you have a team that is rolling and guys are playing well--ride it out. When they need a quick breather, are in foul trouble, or struggling, it's nice to have other options. Too many times under Pops/Esh--they'd sub despite the fact their "depth" was substandard. However the guards that played with Sweetney were no worse then what Green's played with in terms of talent--they just didn't receive better coaching and didn't have the basketball IQ that Wallace and Sapp have--but that is upon the Staff to recruit kids who possess traits that matter.

Sweetney was a great college player--could be a solid NBA player--but he has decided he would rather build on his resume to take on Kobiayachi in Competitive Eating.

Green has ability to impact games in many ways--and that allows him to be big in clutch moments-he can hurt teams with pass, shot, rebound, and in his initial 2 seasons he was prevented shots by lesser teammate--BET twice in big moments--it was when he decided that was not going to happen and demanded the ball this year--this program returned to elite status. It's on the player to take over and not defer too--and Green did this--but at least III had plays drawn up unlike the mess that was late game "skull sessions" with Esherick.

[SFHoya99]

Here's how I'd think about it. I'm somewhat handicapped by not really seeing the mid-80s Hoyas.

You have to have Ewing on your team. He was beyond dominant defensively, and offensively he was no slouch. There's a lot of great competition -- Mourning, Mutombo, Harrington, Boumtje-Boumtje, Hibbert... I think most of Thompson's early big men were PF, right?

If you look at SF, the pickings are relatively slim. There's Reggie and Wingate and...Boubacar Aw? Brandon Bowman? I feel like you have to go Reggie Williams.

Same with SG. I love Vic Page and Ashanti Cook, but they are nowhere near Sleepy. It's Sleepy and Mark Tillmon and what, maybe someone from the 70's? Jon Smith?

In my mind then, your team is definitely:

C Ewing
PF
SF R. Williams
SG Floyd
PG

So then it comes down to what you want at PF and PG. If you consider Mourning a PF, you have to go with him, but if you don't (and I don't) it's Shelton v Sweetney v Green. I know Green and Mike's arguments; anyone want to make a case for Big Sky?

Same with PG. Iverson is obviously the most talented. But who fits best? Derrick Jackson? One year of Charles Smith? John Duren?

[Note: I am following strict rules of positional alignment. Jeff has never played a minute at SF, though he's capable. Iverson was the PG. I believe Sleepy was a SG at GU, no?]

[hoyalove4ever]

Wallace and Sapp are better than any of our guards since Page and Sheffey. So was Cook by his senior year.

Braswell and Bethel were converted twos who couldn't run the point- they lacked the ability and knack for the position (as well as the work ethic to master it). Wallace is a true one who has loads of leadership and intangibles and who has become a great shooter. Sapp is a true combo who can score and play in transition. So yes, Jeff has much better guards as teammates.

In regard to the substitution pattern, that's really a matter of preference. People get on Roy Williams for using the same type of thing, and in my opinion, such criticism is totally invalid. When you have a lot of athletes but not so much basketball skill, the frequent substitutions allow that physical ability to wear the other team down. (In Williams's case, generally he has skilled athletes; the point is that he uses a similar sub pattern).

The key is having quality depth- but the guys coming off the bench don't have to be great. When we had guys like Burton, Samnick, Perry, Wilson, and Scruggs coming off the bench, as in 2001, it worked very well. None of those guys were great, but they all played tough (perhaps minus Wilson) and added something when they came in the game. Look at the key contributions of a guy like Samnick in the 2001 NCAA game v. Arkansas.

The next year we still had some talented reserves- most notably Thomas- but less depth and a LOT less toughness and experience. And with the problems in recruiting, things went downhill from there. But it is a system can work very well with enough athletes.