HOYAPLAYA
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
IT'S TIME FOR A RUNNNNNNN!!!!!!
Posts: 1,329
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Post by HOYAPLAYA on Apr 22, 2007 13:12:46 GMT -5
Come on SF, 6'4 guards with a natural handle? Dime a dozen. Just like guys who shoot almost 50% from three like Wallace. These guys are great additions and will be for years to come but man, the guys actually on the team just went to the Final Four. Unreal anyone still discounts them. Look... I love what the Hoyas accomplished this year (I think we did exceed expectations.. but just by a little), and getting to the Final Four was huge to the program. That said, even though Rivers is the Kia Sedona of the group... JT3 found ways of inserting him into the lineup effectively. He is a great defender.... no doubt about it!! The problem however is that he is still very much of a liability on offense. The flow of the game on offense is very different when he is in. If I were a betting man, I would say Rivers becomes a good (not great) four year player but does not get to the next level. In fact, I think he gets about the same amount of playing time next year as he did last. The same could be said about the flow of the offense during Sapp's fresman year when he was in the game. Based on the improvement that I've seen from our players over the past few years, I have a feeling we will have a deeper rotation due to the overall talent level of next year's team.
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HealyHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Victory!!!
Posts: 1,059
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Post by HealyHoya on Apr 22, 2007 13:18:02 GMT -5
He is a great defender.... no doubt about it!! The problem however is that he is still very much of a liability on offense. Wallace and Sapp start. End of discussion. Good Lord. And Rivers...look, Rivers needs to improve his jumper, no doubt. No one realizes that more than Jeremiah Rivers and you can be sure he'll be hoisting thousands of J's this summer. That said, after Sapp, Rivers has the best handle on the team, he see's the court exceptionally well, passes well, understands and can run the offense, pushes the ball when appropriate, takes the ball strong to the rim and is a decent offensive rebounding guard. The sum total of those elements on the offensive end of the court is far (far, far, far, freaking far) from being a liability. That's like suggesting that because Shaq tosses bricks from the free throw line that he's a liability on the offensive end. Does Shaq need to improve his free throw shooting? Sure. Is he a liability? Ummm, right. Rivers? Jumper? Sure, improvement would be nice. Liability on offense? Ridiculous.
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RBHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,134
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Post by RBHoya on Apr 22, 2007 13:51:12 GMT -5
Jeff and/or Roy go to the NBA
Starting Guards in November: Wallace, Sapp (+Freeman if both go) Starting Guards in March: Wallace, Sapp, Freeman
Jeff and Roy both stay Starting guards in November: Wallace, Sapp Starting Guards in March: Wallace, Freeman
Feel like I've said this a lot of times in the last month.
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GIGAFAN99
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,487
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Apr 22, 2007 13:56:58 GMT -5
Look... I love what the Hoyas accomplished this year (I think we did exceed expectations.. but just by a little), and getting to the Final Four was huge to the program. That said, even though Rivers is the Kia Sedona of the group... JT3 found ways of inserting him into the lineup effectively. He is a great defender.... no doubt about it!! The problem however is that he is still very much of a liability on offense. The flow of the game on offense is very different when he is in. If I were a betting man, I would say Rivers becomes a good (not great) four year player but does not get to the next level. In fact, I think he gets about the same amount of playing time next year as he did last. The same could be said about the flow of the offense during Sapp's fresman year when he was in the game. Based on the improvement that I've seen from our players over the past few years, I have a feeling we will have a deeper rotation due to the overall talent level of next year's team. Obviously the key words there are "still very much." He might "still" be, but another important point is that we don't have any games until November.
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Locker
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,265
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Post by Locker on Apr 22, 2007 18:54:52 GMT -5
At this point, JT3 doesn't know what our starting backcourt will be next year. It's all gonna depend on who works the hardest between now and November.
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blueandgray
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,762
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Post by blueandgray on Apr 22, 2007 21:06:05 GMT -5
He is a great defender.... no doubt about it!! The problem however is that he is still very much of a liability on offense. Wallace and Sapp start. End of discussion. Good Lord. And Rivers...look, Rivers needs to improve his jumper, no doubt. No one realizes that more than Jeremiah Rivers and you can be sure he'll be hoisting thousands of J's this summer. That said, after Sapp, Rivers has the best handle on the team, he see's the court exceptionally well, passes well, understands and can run the offense, pushes the ball when appropriate, takes the ball strong to the rim and is a decent offensive rebounding guard. The sum total of those elements on the offensive end of the court is far (far, far, far, freaking far) from being a liability. That's like suggesting that because Shaq tosses bricks from the free throw line that he's a liability on the offensive end. Does Shaq need to improve his free throw shooting? Sure. Is he a liability? Ummm, right. Rivers? Jumper? Sure, improvement would be nice. Liability on offense? Ridiculous. Healy Hoya... I agree that Rivers can and will get better. If he improves as much as Sapp did from year 1 to 2 .. that would be great (but i doubt he will get the playing time that Sapp got last year). Yes, Rivers is a good rebounding guard, a great man on man defender, and brings a lot of energy when he does get on the court. I also still contend that he IS a liability on offense. Your Shaq O'Neil comparison did nothing sway my thoughts on the topic (how can you even begin to compare Rivers to Shaq???). When you have a Shaq on your team, who can single handedly dominate a game, you live with his weaknesses. Are you suggesting that like Shaq, Rivers can completely dominate a game when he is on the court? I think not. At times, Rivers was very shaky against the press, looked lost out there on offense, and defenses simply sagged off of him on the perimeter as he simply is NOT a perimeter threat. Having said that, with Wright and Freeman entering the equation, I maintain that minutes for Rivers will be few and far between and when he does get in, it will primarily be for a defensive assignment. I guess time will tell.
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HealyHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Victory!!!
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Post by HealyHoya on Apr 23, 2007 9:47:06 GMT -5
Clearly the comparison wasn't between Shaq and Rivers but to illustrate the point that a single weakness in the context of the entire skill-set required to be effective on offense doesn't render one a liability. To me, suggesting that Rivers is a liability on offense means his weakness(es) OUTWEIGHS his strength(s) or that Rivers has a net negative impact on the team on offense.
Again, while he needs to improve his jumper, I don't think that one can successfully defend the proposition that Rivers is a net negative for our offense when he's on the court. That is, he doesn't do MORE bad THAN good.
As far as your assertion that Rivers was, at times, shaky against the press...Ok, I'll grant you that point. Here's the rub...AT TIMES Wallace, Sapp, Summers and Green were "shaky" against the press. And while Rivers may have "looked lost" on offense during the first half of the season (...his freshman year) he had as good a grasp of the offense during the second half as Summers, and better than Macklin.
Here's the thing about Rivers, his jumper and whether he was a liability on offense: If his lack of a jumper at the guard position rendered him such a liability, then why (oh why) did III give him ALL THE RUN that so many of the HTers thought should have gone to Tyler Crawford -- a guy who could -- IT IS RUMORED -- nail 499 outta 500 three's. If Rivers was such a liability at the guard position, then III had an option that seemed to address your concern. Crawford can -- apparently -- stick that J that Rivers lacks which renders him a liability.
I would suggest that Crawford's sparse playing time (even with the ability to stroke from three), Rivers' considerable time on the court as a freshman -- including Tourny and crunch time situations -- (even though he ain't dangerous from distance) means that III, at the very least, didn't view Rivers as a liability on offense.
In the end, I agree with you. Time will tell.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Apr 23, 2007 9:56:26 GMT -5
Rivers was actually very good at finishing his layups this year. Not sure what you are talking about there. If he develops an outside shot, he'll be a pro. Agree 100% about Rivers. I would bet the farm that barring injuries, Wallace and Sapp start next year. If Jeff and Roy both leave, a third guard might start.
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blueandgray
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,762
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Post by blueandgray on Apr 23, 2007 10:09:19 GMT -5
Healy Hoya, You've made me think twice about my stance on Rivers. My guess is that he got the run that he did because JT3 felt he had enough offensive firepower in the game and that he needed a defensive stopper... which Rivers became very adept at doing. Please note, I am not contending that he was an overall liability.... he defense more than makes up whatever shortcomings he has on offense.
You're also right about becoming more familiar with the system as the seaon went on.... by the end of the season he certainly looked more comfortable out there than say VM.
In the end, I think he will be an important part of the system and if and when he develops a consistent shot ... watch out!!
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RDF
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 8,835
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Post by RDF on Apr 23, 2007 12:02:50 GMT -5
Remember that Rivers is also the type of guard that will benefit from Wright/Freeman's arrival--they can help ball handling and can spot up and shoot--which opens up the lane for him and also guy like Sapp who both are STRONG--surprising in how strong they are when driving. Having more weapons means better floor spacing and ability to attack defenses in more ways. Rivers is someone who idolizes Jason Kidd and I'd be very happy with a poor man's version--which you can see in flashes. I love how he'll get a rebound and push the ball up--and with more finishers--we should see Hoyas get out and run more. Especially by time Jeremiah is a JR and you have a big like Macklin who is unreal in how easy he runs the floor.
I love the individual talent on this team--a lot of kids have ability to be special players--but what I admire about Rivers and Macklin in particular was how they accepted their roles and were ready for them when called upon. Ticket had tougher transition--always tougher for a frontcourt player--especially one used to playing post and being undersized in terms of strength. That's why you come to a Big East school though--you get to face physical teams and work against teams who aren't soft. Facing Roy in practice will show up more this offseason/next season no matter what happens with Jeff/Roy--he'll develop his game even more--and believe Roy already mentioned this as well.
As for Jeremiah--the battle for playing time with Jon, Jessie, Chris, and Freeman--who I think will be some SF/SG minutes in his career, will make them better players and the team better. Should allow Hoyas to push pace a bit more too--when you have better talent/team--you want to extend game and attack more. Better team wins in "longer/quicker paced game" but we know we have kids/staff that can adjust to any style of game and that why Hoyas are an elite program again.
These "debates" are a helluva lot more fun to discuss then wondering who was transferring, what low level/sleeper recruit we had to hope could be next coming, and missing out on any big time player. Give me these "problems" any day of week. ;D
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HealyHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Victory!!!
Posts: 1,059
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Post by HealyHoya on Apr 23, 2007 13:50:04 GMT -5
These "debates" are a helluva lot more fun to discuss then wondering who was transferring, what low level/sleeper recruit we had to hope could be next coming, and missing out on any big time player. Give me these "problems" any day of week. ;D Well at least there's one point we can all agree on...
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prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 23,358
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Post by prhoya on Apr 23, 2007 13:57:14 GMT -5
With next year's guards, and don't forget Crawford and Wattad, we should go for the full-court press all game long. Last year, we were ranked near the bottom of the BE (I think) in steals per game. Our depth at the guards should put us back on top.
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prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 23,358
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Post by prhoya on Apr 23, 2007 13:58:25 GMT -5
St.Pete, nice "if players were minivans" post... Are you buying one for Mrs. St. Pete?
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,783
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Post by SFHoya99 on Apr 23, 2007 14:59:09 GMT -5
With next year's guards, and don't forget Crawford and Wattad, we should go for the full-court press all game long. Last year, we were ranked near the bottom of the BE (I think) in steals per game. Our depth at the guards should put us back on top. Can the frontcourt keep up? Fouls or stamina-wise? I mean, if Jeff and Roy jump.
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prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 23,358
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Post by prhoya on Apr 23, 2007 15:31:07 GMT -5
We would still have an exceptionally athletic front court. The press could be more focused around guards looking for traps and the front court players staying back.
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Apr 23, 2007 15:54:19 GMT -5
well if Jeff and roy are gone then I think pat and vernon would be pretty good pressing. quick athletic big men. But yeah not sure if those two could keep up stmaina wise or foul wise. But luckily we won't have to worry cause jeff and roy will be back. and then we cna use pat and vernon as a pressing unit and spell the big guys.
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,783
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Post by SFHoya99 on Apr 23, 2007 15:56:28 GMT -5
We would still have an exceptionally athletic front court. The press could be more focused around guards looking for traps and the front court players staying back. Yes, but even playing three guard, you'd only have three players for two positions. If two of them get in foul trouble...
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blueandgray
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,762
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Post by blueandgray on Apr 23, 2007 16:15:09 GMT -5
Re: Full court press with 4 Guard line up.
If Roy and/or Jeff return.... PRESS. The full court, in your face, ala Gene Smith, press should be turned on... spearheaded by Sapp and Rivers. JT3 can sub in and out bodies at will and can use guys like patrick, vernon, and dajuan to close in on passing lanes. Then you keep Jeff and/or Roy at home in case they break the press.
If neither Jeff or Roy return... no press. The danger here being that if team break the press and go right at our big men in an attempt to draw a foul... we are too thin on the frontline to sustain any foul trouble whatsoever. We basically have Patrick and Vernon as big guys and that's it.
If Roy and Jeff do not come back
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Apr 23, 2007 16:20:01 GMT -5
I'd love to see us press...but it seems premature to talk about pressure "ala Gene Smith" when we have no one who is nearly that great of a defender. Rivers is very solid, but he's no Gene Smith.
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blueandgray
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,762
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Post by blueandgray on Apr 23, 2007 16:37:29 GMT -5
I'd love to see us press...but it seems premature to talk about pressure "ala Gene Smith" when we have no one who is nearly that great of a defender. Rivers is very solid, but he's no Gene Smith. Agreed. Gene was amazing...a one man gang (not to mention that Wingate was pretty lethal as well). That said, we would have to press by committee, relying on lots of fresh legs including the likes of Tyler and Omar. We have the athleticism and depth to do it.
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