How would you rank JT2 as a coach?

[the_way]

Of course, JT2 is in the hall of fame.

I remember him saying that he never had the luxury to just be a coach. There were so many things outside of basketball he had to deal with, and hurdles he had to get over.

And when folks always reflect on JT2, it seems they always reflect on his relationship with his players, his stance on issues, that he and his players were so-called "intimidating", etc. but not so much as his coaching tactics. I mean, the man came directly from high school to college coaching as a head coach. The way he won in the Big EAST, his coaching had to stand for something, right?

So, hoya fans, what do you think? Where does JT2 rank as a coach. Is he up there with Coack K, Bob Knight, Dean Smith, Pitino, Calhoun, Is he better? Is he worse?

Were his defenses the best you have ever seen?

Me, personally I think he one of the best ever. Watching his teams shut down Chris Mullin in the final four, or shut down Ray Allen in 96, or Kentucky in the final four, was a thing of beauty.

Sometimes I thought JT2 was his worst enemy. The 1996 BET championship game comes to mind. Playing not to lose, did him in.

Also, we know from the 90's on, JT2 was on cruise control from a coaching and recruiting standpoint. And at times during late 80's on as well from a recruiting standpoint.

But, all and all, with him at 100% effort, I'd take JT2 as a coach over anybody.

what about you?

discuss

[tgo]

This is one of those debates that may revolve around how you define your terms. what makes a great coach? I would say that the most important factor is the win column and if you can help your players rise above opponents that are more talented on paper.

Thompson was a great coach in so many way, many ways that most coaches ignore. He was a teacher of young men, not just their coach and that is the part that coaches today dont realize should be part of their job description. his players got degrees and for the majority that dont play hoops for a living, he made sure they got jobs and i love that about JT2. he was one of the all time great recruiters ... when he tried ... he prepared his teams physically and mentally better than most, so on those fronts he ranks as one of the greats of all time.

That doesnt, however, make up for his glaring deficiencies as a game coach. JT2's teams didnt know what to do in a close game often and rarely made adjustments to counteract opposing game plans which is why, with the talent present, we have only one national championship and 3 final fours. obviously great accomplishments but should have been more in both columns. remember the four swing men and a gimp offense in the early 90s? look at the talent on the 96 team, how do come away from that season with no banners to hang? while you can make an argument that JT2 is better than any coach in several aspects of the job, the last aspect has such a huge affect on the win column that you cant put him in the conversation of the best coaches ever. Lastly, a great coaches can win with lesser talent. old timers who were around for the building years of the late 70s may be able to show some examples where this wasnt true at that time - i dont know- but in the last 16 years of his career thompson never got more out of his team than the talent on the roster suggested he would, he in fact got less many times, that is not the mark of a great coach.

[StPetersburgHoya (Inactive)]

The only coaches I would rank him under are Wooden and Iba the rest in my mind are debatable. If we are going for cultural significance I'd rank him #1.

[Oh My!]

Lots of media talk recently about Hall of Famers being such because of their IMPACT on the(ir) game, and not just their #s. In this regard, Pops is among the top 5, along with Wooden, Rupp, Haskins, & I would say Smith. He transformed an entire University culture and fights to this day for young men & their rights to OPPORTUNITY.

I believe he also qualifies on Coaching (at any level below professional) record alone as a Hall of Fame Coach, and in this regard, I drop him into my Top 10 with Wooden, Rupp, Knight, The "other" Coach K, Smith, Wootten, Auerbach, Iba, & Summitt.

If anyone has issue with Summitt or Wootten, then I may be misunderstanding the question of how Pops ranks as a COACH. In a few more years, we may have to throw Donovan into this list, doubtful as Top 10, but he is obviously a great results coach.

[the_way]

tgo said:

This is one of those debates that may revolve around how you define your terms. what makes a great coach? I would say that the most important factor is the win column and if you can help your players rise above opponents that are more talented on paper.

Thompson was a great coach in so many way, many ways that most coaches ignore. He was a teacher of young men, not just their coach and that is the part that coaches today dont realize should be part of their job description. his players got degrees and for the majority that dont play hoops for a living, he made sure they got jobs and i love that about JT2. he was one of the all time great recruiters ... when he tried ... he prepared his teams physically and mentally better than most, so on those fronts he ranks as one of the greats of all time.

That doesnt, however, make up for his glaring deficiencies as a game coach. JT2's teams didnt know what to do in a close game often and rarely made adjustments to counteract opposing game plans which is why, with the talent present, we have only one national championship and 3 final fours. obviously great accomplishments but should have been more in both columns. remember the four swing men and a gimp offense in the early 90s? look at the talent on the 96 team, how do come away from that season with no banners to hang? while you can make an argument that JT2 is better than any coach in several aspects of the job, the last aspect has such a huge affect on the win column that you cant put him in the conversation of the best coaches ever. Lastly, a great coaches can win with lesser talent. old timers who were around for the building years of the late 70s may be able to show some examples where this wasnt true at that time - i dont know- but in the last 16 years of his career thompson never got more out of his team than the talent on the roster suggested he would, he in fact got less many times, that is not the mark of a great coach.

Reggie and the miracles in 1987?

Mourning's 1991-1992 team?

[azhoya]

Completely agree with tgo. Great recruiter, great motivater, great teacher but a poor game coach. Could not adjust his game plan on the fly.

I think what really magnified his shortcomings as a game coach was the implementation of the 3 point shot in the 1980's. He never adjusted to it. He refused to recruit shooters, and the Hoyas of the late 1980's and early 1990's were very good teams, sick defense, great rebounders, but offensively clueless. The main play on offense for those teams was heave up a brick, crash the boards and try to get an offensive put back. The second most popular offensive scheme was get a blocked shot or steal and turn it into a fastbreak. Worked pretty well for the regular season against alot of teams, but they would always run into a team in the tournament that could hit their outside shots (ie Duke, Providence)and would get beat on 3 pointers.

In terms of coaching basketball, I wouldn't even rank him in the top 10. As previously stated, discussing contributions to the game and the whole package, definitely a Hall of Famer.

[RDF]

Pops was a great coach when he wanted to be--and luckily for Hoya fans that was majority of his career--however he really coasted from '90 to the end. Part of his responsibility was to maintain the recruiting level that allows you to compete at the highest level and too many times there were kids who would've maintained the status of the program who were ignored due to an attitude of "not wanting to kiss butt of teenagers"--well that is what recruiting is--courting teenage kids and helping mold them--which Pops was outstanding at. He had so much influence he could have helped shaped the youngsters outlooks on issues as he did and does now. I can understand his feelings but he's got to understand what industry he is in--and realize that part of that is recruiting.

The talent Alonzo Mourning had around him his JR/SR years was not good--it was not the level of players the Hoyas could have had or should have had. After that--he turned it up a notch--getting better talent in Othella, Jerome, Jahidi, Iverson, Page, and then it was back to marginal players only to leave some good talent for Esherick. Fact he could turn it on/off shows he was not as committed to job as needed.

Pops was a great coach during the time he was completely focused on basketball and got the most out of his teams which always seemed to be playing at their best as season approached February/March--which is sign of a great coach--the team improves.

Even though I disagree with some of his outlooks at recruiting, substitution patterns, etc... he's the reason I love CBB and Georgetown and he'll be one of the most influential people in my life outside of my family due to the fact he led the team that has a big part of my social interest/main hobby. Nothing like being a Hoya fan and it's due to Pops.

[tgo]

theway said:

Reggie and the miracles in 1987?

Mourning's 1991-1992 team?

from mournings bio ... GU "entered the 1991-92 season as one of two favorites for the conference title."
They were led by an all american and they hung no banners, made it to the second round of the ncaa's, color me unimpressed. nothing around mourning on that team but he was such a difference maker that they should have gotten as far as they did on him alone, certainly didnt over achieve.

87 team had Perry McDonald, Dwayne Bryant, Charles Smith, Mark Tillmon, Jaren Jackson, Reggie Williams. sounds rough, my heart goes out to him for not faking a back injury and taking the year off. they had a great year and came up short of the final four. I dont hold it against the team or JT2, i cant speak to their talent in relation to the rest of the NCAA that year but it seems to me most people considered that a slight disappointment, did this team over acheive?

[the_way]

tgo said:

theway said:

Reggie and the miracles in 1987?

Mourning's 1991-1992 team?

from mournings bio ... GU "entered the 1991-92 season as one of two favorites for the conference title."
They were led by an all american and they hung no banners, made it to the second round of the ncaa's, color me unimpressed. nothing around mourning on that team but he was such a difference maker that they should have gotten as far as they did on him alone, certainly didnt over achieve.

87 team had Perry McDonald, Dwayne Bryant, Charles Smith, Mark Tillmon, Jaren Jackson, Reggie Williams. sounds rough, my heart goes out to him for not faking a back injury and taking the year off. they had a great year and came up short of the final four. I dont hold it against the team or JT2, i cant speak to their talent in relation to the rest of the NCAA that year but it seems to me most people considered that a slight disappointment, did this team over acheive?

I would say the 87 team overachieved. Its why they called it Reggie and the Miracles. It was a play on the group Smokey and the Miracles. Where Smokey Robinson was the whole group. Reggie was the only established player and star left on that roster.

As far as Mourning senior year, the talent he was surrounded with was marginal at best. Look at the talent he had around him his freshman and sophomore years vs. the talent around him his jr and sr years. Its not the same. Zo carried that team his senior year. And that is why it was such a huge dropoff when Othella came in after Zo left. Othella was a good player and the best recruit out of his class that year, but he wasn't the franchise player that Zo was that could carry a team of marginal talent.

[vcjack]

I remember before the BET title game this year they were showing a montogue of previous title games and when they got to 96 I looked over where Pops was sitting, he hadn't been paying attention before but he was fixed on the screen now. It was hard to read him, I couldn't tell if he was frustrated or depressed or if he didn't care, but it was clear that this is a man who lives and breathes basketball and lives in a basketball world.

[hoyasexy]

I wouldn't trade his son for anyone.

[the_way]

hoyamonkey said:

I wouldn't trade his son for anyone.

Ronny? ;D

[sleepyjackson21]

87 definetly overachieved. Best coaching job of JT2' career. Preseason they were borderline top 25 and they ended up being Big East co champions, Big East tourney champions and made it to the elite eight. Far from being a disappointment. Charles Smith and Jaren Jackson were relative unknowns, Dwayne Bryant and Mark Tillmon were still young and inside we were very very small. Perry McDonald all 6 ft 4 of him and the Sarge Ronnie Highsmith manned the paint. Teams back then were loaded. No question that team exceeded expectations.

[SoCalHoya]

IMHO, JT2 is in the top 5 for college bball coaches, and maybe 10 ten coaches of basketball pro or amateur.

Culturally, spiritually, emotionally, he is #1. He changed Georgetown and college basketball in such a profound way. He may not be a perfect person (who is?), but he is certainly #1 to me.

[EasyEd]

One measure of how good a coach JT2 was is the number of teams that imitated his defenses. Before long many other teams were doing the same thing and when they did, he lost the edge he had earlier.

[RDF]

sleepyjackson21 said:

87 definetly overachieved. Best coaching job of JT2' career. Preseason they were borderline top 25 and they ended up being Big East co champions, Big East tourney champions and made it to the elite eight. Far from being a disappointment. Charles Smith and Jaren Jackson were relative unknowns, Dwayne Bryant and Mark Tillmon were still young and inside we were very very small. Perry McDonald all 6 ft 4 of him and the Sarge Ronnie Highsmith manned the paint. Teams back then were loaded. No question that team exceeded expectations.

Bryant and Tillmon were Freshmen that year, Smitty emerged LATE in the year when Pops told him he'd recruit over him, but they were a team that had kids committed to their roles--be it Bobby Winston or Jonathan Edwards. Ronnie Highsmith provided leadership and never forget Ben Gillery jumping center and quickly exiting the game--but he did have a big game against Cuse his SR year in '88 against Seikaly/Coleman.

Best coaching job Pops did? I'd say the year he got the Hoyas into NCAA after AI left and Victor was the mad bomber. That was a bad basketball team and they found their way into the NCAA's--which was looking as an impossibility even as late as early February. That was impressive because that team had 1 scorer and everyone else was a role player or marginal talent.

'87 team had talent--albeit not as loaded as Pops other great teams but it had a dominant college player in Reggie Williams, and good guards--with Tillmon and Bryant, Smitty, Winston, and tough nosed Perry McDonald upfront with role players Edwards, Allen, and Highsmith.

[guru]

He was a very good coach, and as a personality he would have to rank as one of the greatest ever. But as a pure coach I'm not sure he would rank all that highly. It's a legitmate argument against him that he never made a Final Four without Ewing, and he certainly never adapted to the game after the introduction of the three point shot in 1987. His system ran on fumes and Mourning for a few years after that, got a jolt with Iverson (though I think not winning anything with the collection of players he had in 1996 would have to be his worst job ever), then disintegrated shortly thereafter. He had an amazing 10 year run from 1980 - 1989, but he's not one of the best ever coaches. His son, on the other hand, could be when all is said and done. And I think he'd be even happier about that.