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Post by daytonahoya31 on Mar 31, 2007 20:52:36 GMT -5
And Roy is special, he's just special in a different way.
Roy has tremendous footwork, great hands and he plays big like his size. He has soft touch, a great great work ethc and can shoot with either hand.
Oden's just blessed with great timing and great athleticism. He's like a 7 foot version of Alonzo Mourning. That's special. Plus, it's not like he can't play offensively. Those two jump hooks over Roy were killers.
And I think Oden would be special in any era. The lack of quality big men in the college game doesn't diminish the great talent that he is
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Mar 31, 2007 20:57:15 GMT -5
He's like a 7 foot version of Alonzo Mourning. Thanks, you just lost all credibility right there. Oden couldn't handle Hibbert. What do you think Mourning do if Oden guarded him? lol He'd eat Oden for breakfast.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Mar 31, 2007 21:16:34 GMT -5
Oden is definitely the guy you take first if you were a GM choosing between him and Hibbs. But I'm still waiting for Oden to display his greatness. People talk about him as if he is the next Jabbar. Stop it. He isn't as good as Ewing as a frosh. He isn't even as good as Mourning as a frosh (the best shot blocker I’ve ever seen). Could you imagine Zo going up against this relatively weak field of collegiate talent? He isn't as good as Shaq as a frosh.
I'm not taking anything away from the dude. I'll take him on my team ANY DAY. Is his upside bigger than Roy's? Well, yes. He's faster and more athletic and is tall enough to play the center position. But is it totally out of the question that Hibbert could end up being as good if not a better player at the next level? Heck, no. Stranger things have happened and frankly Hibbert has been improving at too fast a level to dismiss such a notion.
Lets look at Oden's advantages again:
Quicker. More athletic (big time athlete for a big man). A superior shot blocker. More explosive. Confident, steely demeanor. A superior rebounder.
Now lets look at Hibbert's advantages:
Taller (Oden even admitted, as I thought, that he was not really 7 feet tall----more like 6'11. Roy is a legit 7'2). Much more skilled. A better all-around game. Superior post moves. A work ethic second to none (one that Larry Bird would admire).
Both players have excellent hands.
Think of this. Even though Roy got some respect coming into this season he wasn't even in the conversation when the experts talked about the elite big men in the country (those being Oden, Hansbrough, Noah, Spencer Hawes, Gray, etc). Many scouts even had Thabeet over Roy. But Hibbert keeps making rapid improvement and is gaining on folks. Even nbadraft.net which has been stingy at times giving Roy praise has now pushed him all the way up to #8 in this draft and that's with their prediction that Oden, Durant, Noah, Brandon Wright, that frosh from Kansas, Jeff Green and Horford all coming out.
Its time for people to stop dismissing Roy. He may have problem keeping up with psuedo centers of the NBA like Chris Bosh and Stoudemire. But in the NBA the winners still tend to rely on halfcourt games in the post season. And virtually every player not named Yao Ming will have trouble guarding Roy at the next level. A big man that has touch, has great hands, can go effectively to the right or the left, can score well with either hand, has an endless collection of moves, is very skilled, is very cerebral, is very strong, listens to an instruction and wants to get better every time he goes out on the court is a LOAD. Period. And like Oden he is just scratching the surface. Kid is a junior but only has been 20 for three months.
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Post by daytonahoya31 on Mar 31, 2007 21:17:17 GMT -5
That's why Roy is a special player.....with that sentence you took mad props from Roy
The fact that Roy handled Oden says more about Roy's ability than it does about Oden's.
Me thinks I got my credibility back
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Post by nomer on Mar 31, 2007 21:21:41 GMT -5
The other thing people don't realize about Roy is he's still relatively raw for an American center. Plus he is barely 20, only two months older than Thabeet! Needless to say I am really hoping he honors his promise to stay 4 years.
I mean, has Oden gotten any better recently? Aside from learning to shoot left-handed a little bit, he still doesn't have the post moves a guy his size and a guy who is as dominant as he is on defense should have (mainly because Matta refuses to run the offense through him and because his team seems to play better when he isn't in the game).
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Mar 31, 2007 23:28:07 GMT -5
Oden is definitely the guy you take first if you were a GM choosing between him and Hibbs. But I'm still waiting for Oden to display his greatness. People talk about him as if he is the next Jabbar. Stop it. He isn't as good as Ewing as a frosh. He isn't even as good as Mourning as a frosh (the best shot blocker I’ve ever seen). Could you imagine Zo going up against this relatively weak field of collegiate talent? He isn't as good as Shaq as a frosh. I'm not taking anything away from the dude. I'll take him on my team ANY DAY. Is his upside bigger than Roy's? Well, yes. He's faster and more athletic and is tall enough to play the center position. But is it totally out of the question that Hibbert could end up being as good if not a better player at the next level? Heck, no. Stranger things have happened and frankly Hibbert has been improving at too fast a level to dismiss such a notion. Lets look at Oden's advantages again: Quicker. More athletic (big time athlete for a big man). A superior shot blocker. More explosive. Confident, steely demeanor. A superior rebounder. Now lets look at Hibbert's advantages: Taller (Oden even admitted, as I thought, that he was not really 7 feet tall----more like 6'11. Roy is a legit 7'2). Much more skilled. A better all-around game. Superior post moves. A work ethic second to none (one that Larry Bird would admire). Both players have excellent hands. Think of this. Even though Roy got some respect coming into this season he wasn't even in the conversation when the experts talked about the elite big men in the country (those being Oden, Hansbrough, Noah, Spencer Hawes, Gray, etc). Many scouts even had Thabeet over Roy. But Hibbert keeps making rapid improvement and is gaining on folks. Even nbadraft.net which has been stingy at times giving Roy praise has now pushed him all the way up to #8 in this draft and that's with their prediction that Oden, Durant, Noah, Brandon Wright, that frosh from Kansas, Jeff Green and Horford all coming out. Its time for people to stop dismissing Roy. He may have problem keeping up with psuedo centers of the NBA like Chris Bosh and Stoudemire. But in the NBA the winners still tend to rely on halfcourt games in the post season. And virtually every player not named Yao Ming will have trouble guarding Roy at the next level. A big man that has touch, has great hands, can go effectively to the right or the left, can score well with either hand, has an endless collection of moves, is very skilled, is very cerebral, is very strong, listens to an instruction and wants to get better every time he goes out on the court is a LOAD. Period. And like Oden he is just scratching the surface. Kid is a junior but only has been 20 for three months. I'd add both kids are winners--what Oden brings is winning and that's a credit to him--his teams seem to win and it's not a coincedence that he's on them-but Mike Conley JR is also a HUGE factor there--which someone like Mourning NEVER got to play alongside--Smitty in his first year and Zo got us to Elite 8. The reason Oden is hyped beyond his ability right now is that he's a rare commodity--a post who likes to be a Center--same as Roy-it's also why Oden was not a factor defending Roy--he's never played against someone bigger who is a natural center and not some glorified SF/PF. If you could combine Roy's offensive skill level with Oden's athleticism--then you are talking about one of the greatest/if not the greatest Center prospect to come along in a LONG time. With that said, I think Oden and Roy will both flourish in NBA when they enter the league because of the fact they like playing in post and provide a big presence/hunger to go down and play like bigs. Hibbert is far superior in terms of offensive moves/skill but he should be due to his time in college at this point. Oden is raw, but has tremendous talent and his hook shots were wonderful today. Kid is just a winner and I tip my hat to him.
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Post by MCIGuy on Apr 1, 2007 6:06:03 GMT -5
That's the one part I disagree with. There are guys who stick around four years in college and the play another ten years in the NBA who don't add as may moves to their offensive repertoire as Roy has in just a couple of years. Lets just stick with the Gtown program. What moves did Zo and Deke add during their tenure at GU? In the case of Mourning he got better at executing as he got older and stronger and wiser, but he did not add a go to move to his arsenal. The couple of go to moves he had were already evident in his freshmen season. Even when he got to the NBA Zo lacked that one or two go to moves to count on when points were needed. That's why in his first years at Miami when the post season came along the Heat had to rely more on Hardaway for points than Alonzo. Zo gave you points almost exclusively on effort and power than he did on skill. Mutombo? Forget it. The one thing he seemed to work on was that sky hook with his right hand. Obviously he was limited offensively but at the same time he was never taught much and/or he simply didn't work hard enough o developing post moves. Same thing happened with RBB who, as far as I'm concerned, came into Gtown with far more potential on offense than Hibbert and Deke and possibly even Morning. But he added nothing to his game that he did not already possess while at Archbishop Carrol.
And obviously its not just Gtown big men. Big men at all programs (or those who jumped straight to the NBA) are not really learning moves, particularly back-to-the basket moves. They are relying mostly on their size and athleticism to get by. Whose to say Oden won't do the same? He's not going to face many players in the NBA with size who want to bang down low with him in the first place. He could spend another two years in college and still not add much to his game. Brendan Haywood went to UNC, a great program with great coaching and he never added serious post up moves. Dwight Howard went straight to the NBA and if he had worked on his post moves and footwork like Roy has he would average 26 or more points per game right now.
The coaching staff at GU deserve a lot of credit for Hibbert's development. But ultimately it comes down to the individual. Dave Odom got all sorts of credit for developing one-tie project Tim Duncan into a major force. But when Odo got the more highly regarded Loren Woods he could not get through to the kid. And even after transferring to Arizona, Woods never developed his post game. That tells me it comes down to the character of the individual and how hard that individual is willing to work. Coaching is very important too, of course, but all the coaching in the world won't help if a player is unwilling to put in the time. For the record I'm not claiming Zo and Deke lacked character. Obviously those two were willing to work hard, practice and put in the work (at both the college level and the pro level). During their time in the NBA people have complimented their professionalism. They simply didn't have anyone in college drilling them on technique in the post on offense.
Oden may be getting fine instruction at Ohio State. Nonetheless if he doesn't put in the time in the gym he will never develop the post moves that Hibbert has even if he played 20 more seasons in the Big Ten. For all we know he may not feel its necessary to polish his game in such a fashion. But if he truly has the work ethic and the desire to be great he will be a devastating force.
Also Roy has practiced against Ewing, Mourning, Mutombo, Andrew Bogut and Brendan Haywood. Oden, if he returns to Ohio State, needs to find some big men to spar with both during the offseason and throughout the college basketball season. It will make him better.
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Post by RDF on Apr 1, 2007 6:38:42 GMT -5
Your last paragraph is exactly the point I was making above about why I feel Hibbert should be more skilled at this point-he's had experience playing against bigs--Oden admittedly had never faced someone bigger then him--and it showed on defense where Roy did whatever he wanted in terms of moves. I was surprised by Oden's touch--his jump hook was deadly yesterday and that reminded me of a young Patrick more then anything else--where he is nowhere near the caliber--but in today's game he doesn't have to be--he just has to be what he is and the kid wins games.
Alonzo Mourning has gotten all he can out of his ability--I still don't think he's near the player Patrick Ewing was and in college there is no comparison-Ewing was far superior in every facet.
Hibbert entered GU with one thing you can't teach big men-and that's touch/good hands. If you can catch the ball and have touch--you have a shot to be decent and with the work Roy's put in, he's far surpassed decent. Zo was/is mechanical on offense. Ewing was the only offensive center GU has had that could match Roy's skill level--everyone talks of Pat's defensive presence, but watch the tape of his turnaround jumper, soft hooks, and you see skills that get ignored. I'd argue that Wesley Wilson's offensive game was probably 3rd best among GU centers in terms his touch/ability--now between the ears is a different thing altogether. I'm strictly talking about offensive game-not overall impact or greatness as a player. Alonzo is one of the best defensive players EVER--any level and his impact was felt there--offensively--he was/is mechanical--it's not fluid to watch him play offense.
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Post by MCIGuy on Apr 1, 2007 7:29:10 GMT -5
Hibbert entered GU with one thing you can't teach big men-and that's touch/good hands. If you can catch the ball and have touch--you have a shot to be decent and with the work Roy's put in, he's far surpassed decent. Zo was/is mechanical on offense. Ewing was the only offensive center GU has had that could match Roy's skill level--everyone talks of Pat's defensive presence, but watch the tape of his turnaround jumper, soft hooks, and you see skills that get ignored. I'd argue that Wesley Wilson's offensive game was probably 3rd best among GU centers in terms his touch/ability--now between the ears is a different thing altogether. I'm strictly talking about offensive game-not overall impact or greatness as a player. Alonzo is one of the best defensive players EVER--any level and his impact was felt there--offensively--he was/is mechanical--it's not fluid to watch him play offense. Yes, indeed. We think alike. Zo is still my favorite player ever but how, as an undersized center without post moves, did he average 20 points per game before his illness? Heart and determination baby. Work ethic. Being in position to get the baskets when the moments were available. He had an okay baby hook shot but he could only go one way with the ball. He rarely took or made turnaround jumpers but occassionally they would go in. He could use two dribbles to drive by opponets for baskets but in the post season when the defenses were more more tight he ddin 't have that option. He was developing a pretty good face up jumper at GU and when he was in Charlotte, but when he got to Miami Riley put an end to that and had Zo strictly in the paint (kinda like what JT did to Othella at Georgetown). In retrospect Zo should have kept developing that face up jumper until it was automayic from twelve feet out. That's what Amare did who is slighly smaller than Zo. Alonzo though was the best shotblocker I've ever seen. He made shotblocking into a work of art. Ewing easily was more polished on offense. My one problem with Ewing, though, was that at the pro level he settled too much for that jumper and his post game (back to the basket scoring) did not progress the way it should. Take a look at Olajuwan whom from all accounts had no moves whe first arriving at Houston (college) and not only kept progressing on that front while in college but kept on adding layers and layers years after he arrived in the pros. Ewing never added much to his post game and therefore when he faced big me his size or taller he would often have to rely on the turnaround jumper or the faceup jumpshot. Its great to have those weapons but neither allows you to get the opponents in foul trouble. Plus it doesn't give you the opportunity to possibly get a rebound of your own missed shot. Ah, Wesley Wilson. Indeed he had all the offensive talent in the world. Years ago I wrote that if Alonzo had Wilson's build (his height actually) and Wesley's touch, Alonzo would have been one of the top five centers of all time. I'm sticking with that opinion. Wesley Wilson is arguably the biggest waste of talent ever at GU. At least RBB made second or third team All Big East and got an NBA paycheck for a few seasons. Wesley got nothing and was "weak" between the ears it appears. He needed someone to get through to him and coach him up. I swear if you gave Jim Calhoun RBB (even with his lack of heart), Scruggs and Wilson, those players would have been better college players and better pros.
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Post by hoyainspirit on Apr 1, 2007 7:59:00 GMT -5
Oden is a wonderful talent, but the Hoyas were the better team when both were on the floor.
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Post by RDF on Apr 1, 2007 11:04:36 GMT -5
Hibbert entered GU with one thing you can't teach big men-and that's touch/good hands. If you can catch the ball and have touch--you have a shot to be decent and with the work Roy's put in, he's far surpassed decent. Zo was/is mechanical on offense. Ewing was the only offensive center GU has had that could match Roy's skill level--everyone talks of Pat's defensive presence, but watch the tape of his turnaround jumper, soft hooks, and you see skills that get ignored. I'd argue that Wesley Wilson's offensive game was probably 3rd best among GU centers in terms his touch/ability--now between the ears is a different thing altogether. I'm strictly talking about offensive game-not overall impact or greatness as a player. Alonzo is one of the best defensive players EVER--any level and his impact was felt there--offensively--he was/is mechanical--it's not fluid to watch him play offense. Yes, indeed. We think alike. Zo is still my favorite player ever but how, as an undersized center without post moves, did he average 20 points per game before his illness? Heart and determination baby. Work ethic. Being in position to get the baskets when the moments were available. He had an okay baby hook shot but he could only go one way with the ball. He rarely took or made turnaround jumpers but occassionally they would go in. He could use two dribbles to drive by opponets for baskets but in the post season when the defenses were more more tight he ddin 't have that option. He was developing a pretty good face up jumper at GU and when he was in Charlotte, but when he got to Miami Riley put an end to that and had Zo strictly in the paint (kinda like what JT did to Othella at Georgetown). In retrospect Zo should have kept developing that face up jumper until it was automayic from twelve feet out. That's what Amare did who is slighly smaller than Zo. Alonzo though was the best shotblocker I've ever seen. He made shotblocking into a work of art. Ewing easily was more polished on offense. My one problem with Ewing, though, was that at the pro level he settled too much for that jumper and his post game (back to the basket scoring) did not progress the way it should. Take a look at Olajuwan whom from all accounts had no moves whe first arriving at Houston (college) and not only kept progressing on that front while in college but kept on adding layers and layers years after he arrived in the pros. Ewing never added much to his post game and therefore when he faced big me his size or taller he would often have to rely on the turnaround jumper or the faceup jumpshot. Its great to have those weapons but neither allows you to get the opponents in foul trouble. Plus it doesn't give you the opportunity to possibly get a rebound of your own missed shot. Ah, Wesley Wilson. Indeed he had all the offensive talent in the world. Years ago I wrote that if Alonzo had Wilson's build (his height actually) and Wesley's touch, Alonzo would have been one of the top five centers of all time. I'm sticking with that opinion. Wesley Wilson is arguably the biggest waste of talent ever at GU. At least RBB made second or third team All Big East and got an NBA paycheck for a few seasons. Wesley got nothing and was "weak" between the ears it appears. He needed someone to get through to him and coach him up. I swear if you gave Jim Calhoun RBB (even with his lack of heart), Scruggs and Wilson, those players would have been better college players and better pros. Ewing also went more perimeter due to the fact if he stayed in post--he'd get doubled and throw ball out to a bunch of guys who couldn't shoot--you could argue that Knicks best perimeter shooters during Ewings prime were Ewing and Charles Oakley. Zo has gotten everything out of basketball he could and he had a nice touch developing--and shown at GU time to time and in Charlotte--then in Miami as you described Riley had him anchor down in middle and he got so muscle bound it effected his jumper and even his hook--which he still made was more of a throw instead of nice jumphook he originally possessed. Zo actually was a decent FT Shooter too-and in Miami he became very unsure at the FT Line. Wes Wilson's offensive game was NBA caliber-but he wasn't dedicated enough to the game and it's truly a waste of talent. Wish him best but he really let an opportunity slip away to play in NBA. All I know is that Hibbert's game is truly dominant offensively. He's got some funny looking shots due to his height and the lack of room you get as a college post as spacing on court isn't as big as it'll be for him in NBA due to respect the other players have to get, but when Roy makes drop step, spin dribble moves, etc.. it's a thing of beauty and fluid as can be. He's taken a weakness (Agility) and made it a strength around hoop. If he were to get his lower base/legs stronger this offseason--some of the hits he takes where he goes to FT line--will be completed hoops and he'll be even tougher cover for opposing teams. He's a great passer/has wonderful touch on jumpshot and is a good FT shooter--although I believe Roy has ability to be near 80% as a FT shooter too. As for Hakeem Olajuwon---there is a reason nobody even debates him being drafted ahead of Michael Jordan--remember the talk is always of "why would you draft Sam Bowie and not MJ" nobody brings up Hakeem and that is all I'll say about his game. It's not as if he discovered something in NBA--he always had it and if you didn't watch basketball back when he was in college--it might appear as you described. The guy went to Final Four all 3 years he was in college--2 NC title games and lost on a fluke play like Patrick did his FR year and to Patrick and Hoyas--which isn't a crime considering he lost Clyde Drexler the previous year.
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