aggypryd
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by aggypryd on Dec 8, 2006 10:43:26 GMT -5
I am probably the only Board member who actually enjoys women's basketball! It will be much better for the women's game when such disparities in talent no longer exist. you can include me... I've been watching it since Rebecca Lobo and her squad went undefeated back in '95(?).
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PDRHoya99
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by PDRHoya99 on Dec 8, 2006 10:54:09 GMT -5
I am probably the only Board member who actually enjoys women's basketball! It will be much better for the women's game when such disparities in talent no longer exist. So how exactly does this come to pass? Women's basketball has been filling the tickers at the bottom of real sporting events for over a decade now (and shocking fans of Men's basketball for about the same amount of time). The powers don't seem to have changed drastically in that time. Every year I fill out the ESPN bracket picking only the top seeds in every round, and invariably I do pretty well. Is it a case where there just isn't enough actual talent to fill a few hundred Div-I squads, so it gets concentrated with a handful of power teams? I'll assume its a combination of lack of top talent combined with a huge dropoff between the very good and the merely average (which is quite different than the men's game, where George Mason's starting 5 can get hot and be as good as any team in the country). If that's the case, I'd think Georgetown should realign its athletic budget to adjust to that reality, and find a sport where it can recruit top level talent and be competitive. It seems we've been able to do that in track, lacrosse and field hockey, why not adjust our spending to play to our strengths?
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Dec 8, 2006 11:29:10 GMT -5
yeah that game was pretty ugly but we got a good number of students to turn out. And they cheered despite the score.
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CAHoya07
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by CAHoya07 on Dec 8, 2006 12:22:22 GMT -5
This was obviously an ugly, ugly loss for the team, the program, and the school, but the team is still 7-3 at this point, much better than it has been in recent years with a comparable schedule. I still expect improvement from this team, and think they can make the Big East Tournament. But yes, something so embarrassing like this can and should be a wake-up call for the program, because it reinforces the notion that men's basketball is the only sport really worth supporting.
I don't know too much about our program, but I remember reading something about a recruit committing who was considering other schools such has St. Peters and Fairfield. If we want to be competitive, we need to step it up in recruiting. Moreover, we need to have something to sell. We do have one McDonald's All-American in Katrina Wheeler who remains extremely raw and underdeveloped, but overall our talent level is just pretty poor. Even Geno was quoted after the game that the talent disparity was pretty evident last night.
However, I'll disagree with MBHoya that instead of cutting money from women's basketball and giving it to other sports, maybe we should be giving it more. Women's basketball is one of the few sports that gives us a chance for national TV exposure and revenue. I think it should be more MORE of a priority within the athletic department.
Finally, Hoya Blue has, in fact, made women's basketball more of a priority this year, and we did an event for this game that got a pretty good turnout. We've elected chairs for the sport and will do something for every home game in the spring semester that doesn't conflict with men's basketball.
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PDRHoya99
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by PDRHoya99 on Dec 8, 2006 14:23:53 GMT -5
... but the team is still 7-3 at this point, much better than it has been in recent years... Losses: UConn, Hawaii, UConn, Towson and UConn Wins: Eastern KY, Fordham, East TN, Appalachian St, Mt. St Marys, American and Navy Why did I list UConn 3 times? Because we could triple our score and it'd still be an L. With the obvious exception of UConn, nobody strikes me as being an equal to Big East level competition. The terps won the national title last year in women's hoops, and spent almost the exact same amount per player as we did, $32k. They did have a few more players (13 vs 10), so their budget was slightly higher overall, but only slightly. Given that they are ranked highly again this year, I'm guessing our starting five would have a hard time hanging with their bottom 5, so I doubt it's an issue of those 3 extra schollies putting them over the top. As for TV exposure, with the number of college sports that are now televised via CSTV, the Fox Sports Channels, the Tennis Channel, the Golf Channel, ESPNU as well as other regional networks like MASN, I highly doubt that our women's hoop team has the ability to bring in much more national exposure than any other sport. If by this statement you mean they could make an NCAA tourney, then I'll direct you to the evidence from last night where the #7 team in the country tripled our score. If on the off chance they would make an NCAA tourney (which seems pretty remote since making the BET has been a stretch of late), they would play a top ranked team and get smoked. I'm not sure that qualifies as good TV exposure. I applaud HB's efforts to bring more spectators, as it certainly can't hurt. However it still seems like the $$$ spent on women's hoops would be better served in a program that consistently competes at a Big East level.
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CAHoya07
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by CAHoya07 on Dec 8, 2006 14:55:04 GMT -5
I see what you're saying, MB, but I don't think the solution is giving up and cutting off a chunk money from women's basketball. I'd like to see all Georgetown sports consistently compete and contend for Big East championships, but since basketball is more visible than other sports, I think it should be prioritized as such.
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Post by htownhoya09 on Dec 8, 2006 14:59:08 GMT -5
I see what you're saying, MB, but I don't think the solution is giving up and cutting off a chunk money from women's basketball. I'd like to see all Georgetown sports consistently compete and contend for Big East championships, but since basketball is more visible than other sports, I think it should be prioritized as such. Agreed CAHoya, cutting money from the Women's basketball program and giving it to, lets say, the tennis program, would certainly improve the tennis program but would also give us no exposure.
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RBHoya
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Post by RBHoya on Dec 8, 2006 15:17:29 GMT -5
I don't know about a wakeup call for the program, considering that last year they lost to UConn by a comparable amount (40 something I think).
Here are a few of the problems with our team I've noticed in the 2 games I've watched this year (most of which were also true in the handful of games I caught last year):
-We cannot shoot from the outside. I don't know a ton about women's hoops, but it seems like a game that ought to rely heavily on perimeter shooting, since you're not taking it to the rack for a jam. The best women's basketball players can shoot the ball, and nobody on our team can.
-We can't catch the ball. This would seem like the most basic skill for a basketball player, something that most "athletes" have mastered by about the age of 4. We can't do it.
-We are horrible on defense. UConn was pretty good, but how many times can we give them layups off of inbounds passes? You don't need to be an athlete to make a wide open layup--my mom could hit those. And how many times do we need to give up layups in the post before we realize that we either need to deny the girl position there or at least front her to deny an entry pass?
--We take terrible shots. About half of the shots we put up (literally) were just thrown at the rim without a prayer. If we had good looks but couldn't convert, that'd be one thing. But our offense was just terrible, and featured a lot of drives to the basket with bricks or airballs put up. Watching us play on offense is the only thing uglier than that final point total.
--IMO--and I hate to be this blunt, but it should be said--most of the blame has to fall on the coach. The team looks pretty clueless. Theres no reason that Georgetown should be losing to Towson and last night was just a complete disaster. Coach WF just seems to shout at the players and make this bug-eyed face at them when they screw up (so pretty much all game long). Aside from earning the school some brownie points with her brother, TWF seems to be pretty worthless as a head coach.
I'd like to write a newspaper column about this but I think my point of view is probably too harsh for that forum. Maybe I can soften it a little though.
It's tough for me to accept such a performance though, when the ladies in UMCP are coming off a championship. If DFW is right about spending, and I have no reason to believe he's not, then it's not really a money issue for the Hoyas. Other than a nice building to play in, what does UMCP offer their girls that we can't? Both play in top conferences, so it's not that either. I just don't understand how the disparity in recruiting could be so huge.
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hifigator
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by hifigator on Dec 8, 2006 15:34:44 GMT -5
The problem with women's basketball is there are no highlights unless you call a reverse layup something special. The WNBA is the only sport I actually would advocate steroid use in. I'm with you there. I have tried several times but I just can't get into women's hoops. I have taken my kids at least once to these Gator sports: Football Baseball Men's Basketball Men's Tennis Women't tennis Soccer Softball Swimming/Diving Track and Field Volleyball and Women's Basketball I can honestly say that women's hoops is the one I like least by far.
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FLHoya
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Proud Member of Generation Burton
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Post by FLHoya on Dec 8, 2006 15:36:05 GMT -5
I see what you're saying, MB, but I don't think the solution is giving up and cutting off a chunk money from women's basketball. I'd like to see all Georgetown sports consistently compete and contend for Big East championships, but since basketball is more visible than other sports, I think it should be prioritized as such. This is a somewhat simplistic statement, but I'm in favor of giving more money to all GU sports to the greatest extent we can. That term "fully fund" or "fully funded" is something I hear a lot, and I'm hoping that we're always moving in that direction. That's not always monetary though--fully "supporting" the programs includes bringing in good coaches with experience at good programs under their belt. Terri Williams-Flournoy was an assistant at a good women's program at Georgia (she was recruiting coordinator for a team that made the Final Four), Kevin Kelly came from the U.S. Naval Academy, and Brian Wiese and his magic hat came from Notre Dame and Stanford before that. The one thing you can't say is that the Athletic Department has become complacent with the status of these programs. Women's basketball is admittedly a puzzler though...there's something about the distribution of talent and the relatively small number of "big-time" programs...I actually had a conversation at the game last night in which I postulated: there's NO WAY we're spending all we can on women's bball. Guess I was wrong. It was an awful game, we deserve as much of the blame as UConn for the awful score. Nothing much else to say really. Now admittedly, a lot of the fall sports this season were painful. Here's some records: Women's soccer: 5-9-5 (2-7-2 BE) Men's soccer: 6-11 (3-8), that would be a 20-year worst. Football: 2-9 (0-6 PL) Women's volleyball: 8-19 (2-12 BE) The first three are all sports regularly attended by Hoya Blue, and the fourth probably has the most promotions of non-regularly attended fall sports. This is to point out the OTHER component to "supporting the program" relevant here is fan support. Am I believer in "fan support can change/win games for a team"? In certain cases...obviously not last night . But the fan support is certainly appreciated by the players and coaches, so it has that much of a positive impact. What's more...we're talking about how to get alums and local area fans more involved with the FB program on the other board. One way to do this is to build a culture of supporting the teams at an early stage...while the fans are still students. Quite a few GTown students stay local and stay involved with the campus after graduation. And funny enough, in the second year of the reformed Hoya Blue, I'm seeing for the first time a decent contingent of recent grads coming back for FB, soccer, even volleyball games. So to that extent I'm really happy to see Hoya Blue continue to put in an effort to promote sports like women's basketball despite the fact that EVERYONE should have known what they were getting themselves into last night. I'll tell you this, regardless of the outcome, a lot of those student fans are very passionate (and most of them are freshmen). They're the types that, 3-4 years from now, are still going to consider coming to women's games, FB games, etc., cause HB (and hopefully the Athletic Department) has begun to create that culture. (NOTE: I noticed that between last night and this afternoon, GUHoyas.com dropped the reference to UConn's 42-3 run from the story teaser, which was the first story coming up on the webpage)
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FLHoya
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Post by FLHoya on Dec 8, 2006 15:37:17 GMT -5
I don't know about a wakeup call for the program, considering that last year they lost to UConn by a comparable amount (40 something I think). Here are a few of the problems with our team I've noticed in the 2 games I've watched this year (most of which were also true in the handful of games I caught last year): -We cannot shoot from the outside. I don't know a ton about women's hoops, but it seems like a game that ought to rely heavily on perimeter shooting, since you're not taking it to the rack for a jam. The best women's basketball players can shoot the ball, and nobody on our team can. -We can't catch the ball. This would seem like the most basic skill for a basketball player, something that most "athletes" have mastered by about the age of 4. We can't do it. -We are horrible on defense. UConn was pretty good, but how many times can we give them layups off of inbounds passes? You don't need to be an athlete to make a wide open layup--my mom could hit those. And how many times do we need to give up layups in the post before we realize that we either need to deny the girl position there or at least front her to deny an entry pass? --We take terrible shots. About half of the shots we put up (literally) were just thrown at the rim without a prayer. If we had good looks but couldn't convert, that'd be one thing. But our offense was just terrible, and featured a lot of drives to the basket with bricks or airballs put up. Watching us play on offense is the only thing uglier than that final point total. --IMO--and I hate to be this blunt, but it should be said--most of the blame has to fall on the coach. The team looks pretty clueless. Theres no reason that Georgetown should be losing to Towson and last night was just a complete disaster. Coach WF just seems to shout at the players and make this bug-eyed face at them when they screw up (so pretty much all game long). Aside from earning the school some brownie points with her brother, TWF seems to be pretty worthless as a head coach. I'd like to write a newspaper column about this but I think my point of view is probably too harsh for that forum. Maybe I can soften it a little though. It's tough for me to accept such a performance though, when the ladies in UMCP are coming off a championship. If DFW is right about spending, and I have no reason to believe he's not, then it's not really a money issue for the Hoyas. Other than a nice building to play in, what does UMCP offer their girls that we can't? Both play in top conferences, so it's not that either. I just don't understand how the disparity in recruiting could be so huge. Okay good, you wrote all that so I didn't have to. ;D Let me just say that as much as I can be overly optmistic about the impact of student support, fan support, the IDEA of supporting programs financially, I do get rather annoyed with performances such as last night's. (Well, technically, I laugh sarcastically a lot.)
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theexorcist
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by theexorcist on Dec 8, 2006 22:49:00 GMT -5
There are three points on this thread. They're sufficiently different that it needs to be mentioned.
The first is college women's basketball and its position in the media. I find it enjoyable when the team I'm rooting for does well. Beyond that, meh.
The second issue is different. It is that Georgetown's women's team is awful this year. Very awful. Because I like seeing Georgetown teams win, I'm concerned. The team is still very young, but last season was a lost one, and I don't want this one to be the same.
The third issue is the money spent on the team. Every single Big East school has a women's basketball team. That $1.5M is, if I'm not mistaken, on the low end of women's basketball, especially competitive teams. It's reasonable to suggest that the money might be a factor in our lack of success.
You also have to remember that it would be untenable politically for Georgetown to drop out of the Big East for women's basketball to do what field hockey did a few years ago - essentially play every bad team in the mid-Atlantic rather than get thumped by UConn. Therefore, they have to compete. With a budget chopped even further, getting crushed by Rutgers would turn into getting crushed by Providence. 0-16 in the Big East every year would probably not be good for morale. So advocating some Darwinian approach to athletics funding won't work.
Which leads me back to what I think is the key point .... Georgetown has an awful women's team. Is it the coach? Is it just another learning (and losing) season? Will this team ever compete for an NCAA bid?
P.S. On the "obligation to watch women's sports" thing - I feel an obligation to watch Georgetown teams when possible, based on the supporting the university thing and especially the idea that students learn from competing on a stage. While I won't watch Baylor play Texas in women's basketball on TV, I did watch a variety of teams while I was at Georgetown. This seems to be a legitimate approach.
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Dec 8, 2006 22:58:18 GMT -5
One other item in regards to the "George Mason phenomenon" - men's basketball had this same "problem" with Mikan et al., where one player could make a team an instant contender. Women's basketball has grown in popularity, but there simply aren't the numbers pressing at the highest levels (where there simply isn't enough money or fame to incentivize kids to try for a big-league shoe contract). The top-ranked Maryland women's team has been thumping all the competition, usually doubling their opponent's score.
Competition is slowly improving, and every year there's one or two more upsets. But the fact that the differential in the women's game between the top 20 recruits and the ones from 21-100 remains gigantic (plus the fact that high seeds usually play on campus) continues to keep our beloved Hoyas from getting fitted for a glass slipper this year.
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