riley and diaw fight.

[jchoya4ever]

i hope what happened is just bad timing,and is not what we will be seeing more of. i mean i can't remember anything like this happenning before? i hope coach thompson has a assistant keeping in touch with the players while he is out recruting? we do not need more stuff like this to start happenning. i hope it was just a bad break,that the law was involed and nothing real bad happened but we won't know i would say ever what really happened. i just hope coach has someone keeping taps on the players?

go hoyas!!!!!!

[jerseyhoya34]

jchoya4ever said:

i hope what happened is just bad timing,and is not what we will be seeing more of. i mean i can't remember anything like this happenning before? i hope coach thompson has a assistant keeping in touch with the players while he is out recruting? we do not need more stuff like this to start happenning. i hope it was just a bad break,that the law was involed and nothing real bad happened but we won't know i would say ever what really happened. i just hope coach has someone keeping taps on the players?

go hoyas!!!!!!

JC, both players involved were brought in during Esherick's tenure. Incidentally, there was a locker room incident last season when Wes was in an altercation with three others. While both Riley and Diaw are now under the direction of Coach Thompson, consider the following: 1) Riley is scheduled to graduate soon and is not part of the program moving forward. 2) Riley has not been overly supportive of the recent personnel move, wrote a letter to the Post with C. Free and other Esh babies, and did not attend the press conference for JT3.

I think JT3 should be involved with Amadou, but Riley's days on the Hilltop are numbered. And I agree with RDF below, thank goodness for this. There are a million other Hoyas who I can think of who are tougher than Riles, and he is fugazee (sp?) in comparison.

Incidentally, if you think this is a head coach's job to deal with this nonsense, do you buy into Esherick's 60%, 99% baloney? At GU, basketball players are EXPECTED to be and act like men. These things are given. Our players should bring their lunch pails to work every day and leave their issues on the court. That is the program that I support and the one that I think JT3 is bringing to the table.

Again, good riddance Esherick and good riddance to his "program" in which he did a good job with the 60% that involved this off-the-court bickering and a junky job with the 40% that matters in college basketball.

Welcome JT3! You are Georgetown!

[Joe Hoya]

Very tasteless post, in my opinion, Jersey.

First of all, what does it matter who brought these guys in? They are TEAMMATES, even if one of them has no more eligibility. One is a TEAM CAPTAIN. Regardless of who recruited them, they should not be fighting (or beating up) one another.

Calling the seniors "babies" because they supported their coach is a no-class statement. I only hope that if something like that happened to someone I cared for that I would have the courage to stand up and say that I disagreed with what happened instead of just sitting back and watching others speak up. I would like to think you're more intelligent than to say something like that.

Gerald is still a part of the program until he graduates or leaves the University in some other manner. So to say it isn't the new coach's problem because Gerald won't ever play for him is not accurate, at least in my opinion.

To indict a man who hasn't been the head coach for nearly two months in an incident that appears to be 100% off-the-court in its nature is just asinine. Last year, there was reportedly a locker room altercation, and it seems like it was swiftly dealt with. From what I've heard, it's surprising that there haven't been more (involving certain players' distaste for others). So it's possible that for every fight that comes to blows, the staff was diffusing two more "beefs" without anyone getting into a "call MPD" situation. This seems more like a roommate issue than a teammate one anyway, like the kind of stuff that could happen between any two guys who live together - this just happened to involve two basketball players.

Face it, bro - there is more to a coach's job than winning games. Does the extra stuff comprise 60% of the job? Probably not. But the fact is that when fans and students want to forsake that stuff in the name of winning, bad things can happen. Don't read this as me blaming John III for this altercation, because I'm not. I do believe that the coaching staff should be very intimately involved with the players lives, from teaching them the game to sitting down and talking to them about who they don't get along with and why. The new staff BETTER be keeping tabs on the players, as I expect any program to do. To imply that these guys aren't their problem simply because they came here under the old coach is wrong, and that's what your post did (intentionally or not).

And real smooth how you worked in an "Esh sucks, glad the (insert term of "endearment") is gone" remark into a thread about an off-season player altercation.

[jerseyhoya34]

Joe said:

Very tasteless post, in my opinion, Jersey.

First of all, what does it matter who brought these guys in? They are TEAMMATES, even if one of them has no more eligibility. One is a TEAM CAPTAIN. Regardless of who recruited them, they should not be fighting (or beating up) one another.

Calling the seniors "babies" because they supported their coach is a no-class statement. I only hope that if something like that happened to someone I cared for that I would have the courage to stand up and say that I disagreed with what happened instead of just sitting back and watching others speak up. I would like to think you're more intelligent than to say something like that.

Gerald is still a part of the program until he graduates or leaves the University in some other manner. So to say it isn't the new coach's problem because Gerald won't ever play for him is not accurate, at least in my opinion.

To indict a man who hasn't been the head coach for nearly two months in an incident that appears to be 100% off-the-court in its nature is just asinine. Last year, there was reportedly a locker room altercation, and it seems like it was swiftly dealt with. From what I've heard, it's surprising that there haven't been more (involving certain players' distaste for others). So it's possible that for every fight that comes to blows, the staff was diffusing two more "beefs" without anyone getting into a "call MPD" situation. This seems more like a roommate issue than a teammate one anyway, like the kind of stuff that could happen between any two guys who live together - this just happened to involve two basketball players.

Face it, bro - there is more to a coach's job than winning games. Does the extra stuff comprise 60% of the job? Probably not. But the fact is that when fans and students want to forsake that stuff in the name of winning, bad things can happen. Don't read this as me blaming John III for this altercation, because I'm not. I do believe that the coaching staff should be very intimately involved with the players lives, from teaching them the game to sitting down and talking to them about who they don't get along with and why. The new staff BETTER be keeping tabs on the players, as I expect any program to do. To imply that these guys aren't their problem simply because they came here under the old coach is wrong, and that's what your post did (intentionally or not).

And real smooth how you worked in an "Esh sucks, glad the (insert term of "endearment") is gone" remark into a thread about an off-season player altercation.

Call my post what you want, but I want to be clear that I am sick and tired of this in-program bickering, which I think you can agree with. The list of those involved is long, and there are more than a few who have been involved in these physical altercations. I agree with you on that front.

My post was largely in response to JC's comment which said, "I hope what happened is just bad timing,..., I mean I can't remember anything like this happening before?" I took that to mean that he didn't remember anything like this happening during the Esherick tenure, which, on its face, is false and merits correction. If you took my comments that followed to be overly critical of Esherick, perhaps he does not deserve this. However, I was reacting to JC's apparent criticism of JT3 et al., and I believe that to be unfair.

As for my comment about the seniors, they should be commended for graduating, and I am perfectly willing to do that. However, I believe that it is disappointing that they have not been more supportive of the JT3 hire. Sure, they may like Esherick for whatever reason that they may have, and, frankly, that is their right and they know him well, but the fact that they have not been more welcoming (apparent) of JT3 disappoints me. They made a choice there, and I believe that I can criticize them on the basis of that choice.

Anyway, I have played competitive sports for all sorts of coaches, some of whom had a more win at all costs attitude and some brought more of a "whole person" approach. While I have not played college sports, I can say that I prefer something in the middle, especially for recreational sports. However, what I do know, is that when you put the uniform on, you had better be prepared to win, and that preparation involves practice and personal cpntributions toward the team's efforts.

What I do not buy into is coaches having these sessions to find out whether Person X gets along with Person Y. I expect that people get along to the degree that they can play on the same team and work well together. Frankly to put people through these skull sessions would be a bit patronizing.

You and I see the program and the role of college athletics differently, which is fine. I just say that JT3 et al. are hired to be basketball coaches. That involves many things, but primarily basketball. Teaching life skills along the way is great, and I admire that, but I see their primary role as conducting practices and preparing the team to compete for a National Championship. I make my criticisms on the basis of this, and I would appreciate you not passing judgment on my posts and criticisms just because you see college athletics differently, which you are entitled to do, as I do not make personal criticisms of you because you see GU basketball in a different light and with a different vision.

Likewise, nowhere in my post did I call former Hoya players "Esh babies" because of their support for former Coach Esherick. I did call certain people that, but the reason that you cite for my making that characterization is not supported by the language in my post. As a result, the basis for your personal criticism is erroneous. In other words, sure, I said that these people supported their coach, but nowhere did I say that they are babies because of it.

Also, there are regulations concerning player-coach contact in the off-season, so some of what you are suggesting is not entirely feasible. Also consider the fact that JT3 is trying to get his family moved down to DC, get his children enrolled in schools for the following year, and how he needs to recruit etc. to build a program. The fact that this nonsense with Riley and Diaw is interrupting this process is rather unfortunate. I would have thought that players could get along to the degree that MPD did not have to get involved. Again, that is one of my expectations out of players and people in general, and I make my criticisms on the basis of certain individuals not living up to those expectations.

[Joe Hoya]

I think what you say proves that we are in no position to make criticisms of anybody for anything. I don't like to criticize, but sometimes it comes out. Oh well.

First of all, when you use the term "other Esh babies", it comes off as you calling them all "babies". If you didn't mean that they were babies, then please use better word choice. When you call someone a "baby" you're saying that they share characteristics (such as whining and crying) with newborns. If that's not what you meant, I'm sure there's a better woed for what you did mean.

I never said you criticized John III. I stated that I believed you were indicting a man who hadn't been the coach in nearly two months. I thought it was pretty clear that I was referring to Craig, but apparently it wasn't.

Why should the graduating seniors have to welcome anyone? They're leaving, as you so succinctly put it before. Far as I remember, they never came out to express disappointment with John III, merely with the loss of the previous staff. They wrote their letter a month before the new hire, so I will reserve judgement on their opinions until I see/hear something concrete from them.

I really don't care myself if the players like each other. I think the coaches should care, however. I agree 7 milion percent that whatever differences the players have should be put aside when the uniform goes on and they step on the court. But this is not an on-the-court issue, it seems. I think the coaches should get to know the players very well, like surrogate parents. There's only 12-15 of them, and wasn't a major indictment against the previous coach his alleged inability to relate to the players? So, do you want the coach to relate to them or not? Frankly, that doesn't matter to me except that the staff should be sure to know how the players are relating to each other. That will show itself on the court no matter how hard they try to put it all aside.

I know we agree on a few things, but "all this in-program bickering"? This is the second incident I've heard of between players (former coaches is a different story, but I feel certain people's hands were tied in those situations), and the only one that I've actually seen confirmation of. Any organization is going to have people that don't mesh perfectly. We have that here, with players who will be (as of now at least...never can be too sure ) returning next year and apparently now with some who won't be. You'll get that anywhere. It's preferable if those incidents do not become public, but unfortunately this one has. And to me, that's all this is: an unfortunate incident between two roommates. The fact that they both play on the basketball team probably had nothing to do with it (unless of course Amadou razzed Gerald about his fouls or Gerald got on 'Dou about his scoring "prowess", but I mentioned that in the other thread).

I'm going to sum up by saying that I don't think that EITHER coaching staff, departed or incoming, has any fault for this incident. Anyone who tries to place blame on one of those groups will have a damn tough time trying to convince me, at least. Sure, our views of what a collegiate athletic program should be differ, and we will never see completely eye-to-eye on this type of thing. I think I take more of a forgiving approach, and I feel that yours is too much of a hard-line stance. You probably feel yours is sensible while mine is soft. Fine, we disagree, no problem. I just felt that some of things you said, or maybe just the way you presented those things, came off as offensive. Like I said before, hopefully both parties involved will put this incident behind them and move on. Whether it was totally necessary for MPD to be called in is something we will probably never know for sure, but the point is that this already happened and there's no good done by armchair commentators like you and I speculating and trying to place blame. We both call 'em like we see 'em, and we see 'em differently more often than not. That's fine with me if it's fine with you.

[idhoya]

I think Diaw handled this poorly. Any real man would've settled this without going to the police. That's punkish. If you owe the dude some money, pay the cat. If you're not gonna pay him, prepare to scrap. I didn't know the two were roommates, but that's all the more reason to settle it in house. IMO, it was a bitch move by Diaw.

[RDF]

idhoya said:

I think Diaw handled this poorly. Any real man would've settled this without going to the police. That's punkish. If you owe the dude some money, pay the cat. If you're not gonna pay him, prepare to scrap. I didn't know the two were roommates, but that's all the more reason to settle it in house. IMO, it was a bitch move by Diaw.

I think it's interesting thread on how opinions range from what makes a TEAM and what happened. I'll throw in some more opinions and see what everyone thinks:

1. I agree that IF Diaw called the Police that is very "KG" (I prefer this term over female Dog or Fugazy but like the references). I'd simply pay the man, and then give him a whipping that made him wish he never stepped at me, but then again KG and Chris Webber would hit back to back game winning shots before Gerald Riley would ever beat me. That boy would get beaten so badly his face would swell to the size of his enormous ears!

2. I don't buy the "Players dont' have to like each other" aspect in terms of a College Sports team. Chemistry is more important because of the interaction and fact you live together, go to class together, etc... and it's much more likely to ruin a team than in Professional Sports. In Pro's you have financial responsibility and it's your JOB. In College, it's often about matching kids up who fit together and have cohesion. Not saying you have to be best friends, but the idea is to get guys who get along on and off the court and share the common agenda--winning and improving. That's not always the case. Some worry about NBA, others about shots, etc.... so it's a situation that I think does matter.

3. Common rule I live by, NEVER borrow money to someone unless you know it's going to be returned and often with interest. I understand the anger, but then again I seperate Money from friendship because I'll collect like Tony Soprano if someone is delaying and late. So instead of that, just keep it in the pocket.

4. Throwing out someone's clothes by accident? Whatever that means?? If it was in a box and unmarked, it's on Riley to be understanding. If not, whatever happens, happens and you handle it like men.

5. I agree with Jersey 10000000% on the lack of support shown by Departing Seniors toward JT III. I understand them being Pro Esh and Pro Jaren Jackson for the job or Chuck Driesell, but to be a Hoya used to mean much more than what it became under Esh. JT III is emphasizing this and "FAMILY" is important. The fact the Seniors felt the need to ignore JT III at the Press Conference speaks more about them, then it does Esh, but he recruited players like this and whether they are good guys or not, they didn't understand what this program was about and that responbility falls on the Coach who recruited them in my opinion.

6. For those wondering how a team loses so many close games and can't get over the hump, I think incidents like we've seen over the past 2 years speaks clearly as to why it happens. When you are on the court you have to be cohesive and believe in the system. That means you believe in the coach, your teammates, and that everyone is after the same goal--winning. Well you got players fighting, hating the coach, hating each other, and look at results. If Riley, Freeman, and others loved Esh so much, they needed to straighten this out as Family. I don't blame Esh for all of it, but I do blame him for not having a system in place and so much turnover proves that there was no structure or belief in the program.


Personally, I see Hoyas about to embark on a new era and one that returns to winning ways on the court. I believe in JT III's work ethic and more importantly vision of what he thinks this program needs to be again. Esh never thought there needed to be change and when he did, it was too late. He did what he could, but for whatever reason the program was sinking faster than Titanic.

He believed in the kids he recruited and problem was they didnt' believe in each other. There was a rift in the team and it showed on the court. This happens at many programs and is often why talented teams fail to meet expectations--think Sweetney's Soph and JR seasons. It's also why things tend to sink quickly when you face adversity and that's why I believe JT III will succeed. Hoyas used to FEED off adverse conditions in games and criticism off the court. Lately, they wilted. Why? I've stated my opinion above.


Just as I said below, "WE ARE GEORGETOWN" should mean something to EVERY Hoya, be it a student, teacher, alumni, or player. I feel that hasn't been the case for a long time now and it's nice to see that we have someone in charge of the basketball program and most visible program for GU make that an issue of importance again. If the Seniors don't want to believe, see ya later. I don't have hard feelings but I also don't care for those who dont' have a love for GU.

[Joe Hoya]

I think you're reading too much into the seniors not being at the press conference. They're graduating. They aren't able to play anymore, so they probably don't practice anymore either (although I don't know). What's the worst that could happen - the new coach benches them?

If it were me, no matter who was hired and fired, as a player I would at least go to the press conference if the rest of the team was going. But I really can't find fault with the guys choosing not to. Only one of them is considering pursuing a basketball career. The others have the whole graduation and finding-a-job thing to worry about. Who the next coach is isn't on their front-burner, so to speak.

Or maybe they were protesting. Who knows? I think that's my point - we don't.

[RDF]

Joe said:

I think you're reading too much into the seniors not being at the press conference. They're graduating. They aren't able to play anymore, so they probably don't practice anymore either (although I don't know). What's the worst that could happen - the new coach benches them?

If it were me, no matter who was hired and fired, as a player I would at least go to the press conference if the rest of the team was going. But I really can't find fault with the guys choosing not to. Only one of them is considering pursuing a basketball career. The others have the whole graduation and finding-a-job thing to worry about. Who the next coach is isn't on their front-burner, so to speak.

Or maybe they were protesting. Who knows? I think that's my point - we don't.

You're probably right and I'm reading too much into this, but to me if you take the time to write a letter about what a travesty it is that Esherick was fired, then you care about what is going on with the program. I also noticed that many former players were on hand for the announcement of JT III as coach and that means something to me.

Most important aspect of their absence was they should have a loyalty to the kids who are remaining behind and were their teammates. That is why I brought up the issue of chemistry and how it lacked so much during Esh's tenure. Wouldn't you want to show your teammates/friends support? The fact they wrote the letter, never showed up, haven't wrote/said one thing since hiring, combined with Bowman's comments about how much the new coach "connects" with current team tells more about relationship between upperclassman and underclassman on this Hoya team.

Also, I judge players on how they deal with adversity and that upperclass group failed. I still contend that while Freeman might be a nice kid, he was the worst Captain GU has seen in recent memory. We have had more dissention, transfers, and controversy during his 3 year Captain status than at any point during my 20+ years as a Hoya fan.

But I understand your viewpoint and it could be that my distaste for the Esh Era and past few seasons has tainted my outlook.

[DFW HOYA]

RDF said:

We have had more dissention, transfers, and controversy during his 3 year Captain status than at any point during my 20+ years as a Hoya fan.

Have to disagree with you there, RDF.

While it's a little unfair to make a comparison between Freeman's captaincy among other (he is, after all, the only three year capitain, so a comparison is difficult), the events of 1997 and 1998 carried far more negativity than even this season.

In a time period of about a year, Victor Page left, Jerry Nichols left, Shamel Jones left, the Post had a front page story taking Admissions to task for admitting Page in the first place, Ed Sheffey was thrown off the team, the NCAA Clearinghouse derailed the promise of Anthony Perry's freshman year, Shernard Long was not allowed to rejoin the team over his grades...oh, and Kenny Brunner, too.

Fast forward to thks weekend: outside of this board, no one is sitting back and thinking to themselves that this is a byproduct of Courtland Freeman or Craig Esherick. They're more likely to be asking what John Thompson III is going to do.

[kghoya]

dfw...since you have been following the team longer than i have, here is a question

last year we had the wilson fight in the lockeroom which ended in him leaving the team

this year we have the riley akd fight

how common has it been over the years to have these fights? how common has it been for these fights to result in players quitting the team--see wilson?

[DFW HOYA]

I'm not aware of similar circumstances, but it still has nothing to do with Courtland Freeman being captain.

[1803]

Two college kids got into a fight. This has nothing to do with the program. Did you ever get in a fight with a roommate? Did anyone you know ever get in a fight with a roommate? Did you immediately run to blame the admissions officer who accepted their application? These things happen. These two people are responsible for their own behavior. They are not in grade school. I am in no way condoning what is happening, but to blame a coach for something that happened between these two guys at 2:50 AM at their off campus residence is just silly.

[1975hoya]

Then again this could indicate that there are bigger problems those outside the program are unaware of. Hope this is not the case but the rumors are abundant as to lack of control of players and discord among the players and even some of the managers...probably time to totally clean house if it hasn't already happened...

[jchoya4ever]

no,what i meant is i hope the whole thing was just bad timing.i am 100% behind coach thompson and am glad esh was fired. not because he was a bad person,but just could not coach. i am behind coach thompson,i was trying to say i hope the fight was bad timing and hopefully nothing else like this will reoccur.

go hoyas i am out!!!!!!

[kghoya]

DFW said:

I'm not aware of similar circumstances, but it still has nothing to do with Courtland Freeman being captain.

ahh i see...thanks for clearing that up for me!