One Loss and its the end of the world!?

[the_way]

Man, that is why I don't even post on this board that much anymore. What kind of fans are some of you? I swear, man. One freakin' loss. We are 10-6 in the best conference in America. We are a lock for the NCAA tournament. THAT is an improvement from last year, folks. That is why JTIII was hired. To build a program by making improvements. We are doing that. I'm just disgusted by some of you. How you just throw guys like Bowman under the bus like he is a rag doll or something. Bowman is trying his hardest and his a good player. Guys it wasn't less than 2 years ago we were down in the dumps in all facets of this program. Now look where we are, and some of you are just raggin on our team. Unbelievable!!

But then again, I'm not surprised. Maybe a lot of you aren't Georgetown fans anyway. Since most of you spend your days going on GW's and Terps and Duke message boards, follow what those respective teams do everyday,and watch their games all day long, its no wonder why you don't like our team and treat it they way you do when we lose. I'm sick of it. Its one thing to criticize. I'm cool with that. That is part of being fans. But its another thing to go schizophrenic and throw players and the team under the bus over one loss. Where is the perspective realizing of the tremendous strides we have made as a basketball program and just a short two years!!?

So please, enough. Go somewhere else and find a new team complain and spew hate about. Don't bring it here with our Hoyas. One thing about building a winning program is changing the culture. I think the culture and climate of this board needs to change. Its just too damn negative when it comes to your so-called favorite team.

[Admin]

Sorry, but this board's fans DO care about the team and deserve to express disappointment.--Admin

[1984alloveragain]

AMEN WAY!!!!!!!!!!!

[RockawayHoya]

Way, I totally disagreed with your post in the other thread asking us how in the world we could be upset.

But I wholeheartedly agree with this one. Support our guys when they don't come through for a change. This isn't your favorite pro team. These are our fellow students and Hoyas, and guys I'd be proud to say I rooted for 5, 10, even 20 years from now. And I'm sure proud of them today for what they've accomplished this year, even if I'm grossly disappointed in their performance tonight.

[DonkDonk]

way and rockaway, people basically said that Bowman played poorly (in addition to others). It's you that stretches that into "throwing players under the bus." People have said that it is a terrible loss and rightly questioned the ability of this team to go far in the Tourney - that shouldn't be enough to "make you sick."

Seniors need to step up on college basketball teams at this time of the year. I'm curious how we are to fully analyze lousy play if we can't analyze individual players.

We have come a long way in two years but people find a loss like tonight to be just the reason not to get complacent.

[RDF]

theway said:

Man, that is why I don't even post on this board that much anymore. What kind of fans are some of you? I swear, man. One freakin' loss. We are 10-6 in the best conference in America. We are a lock for the NCAA tournament. THAT is an improvement from last year, folks. That is why JTIII was hired. To build a program by making improvements. We are doing that. I'm just disgusted by some of you. How you just throw guys like Bowman under the bus like he is a rag doll or something. Bowman is trying his hardest and his a good player. Guys it wasn't less than 2 years ago we were down in the dumps in all facets of this program. Now look where we are, and some of you are just raggin on our team. Unbelievable!!

But then again, I'm not surprised. Maybe a lot of you aren't Georgetown fans anyway. Since most of you spend your days going on GW's and Terps and Duke message boards, follow what those respective teams do everyday,and watch their games all day long, its no wonder why you don't like our team and treat it they way you do when we lose. I'm sick of it. Its one thing to criticize. I'm cool with that. That is part of being fans. But its another thing to go schizophrenic and throw players and the team under the bus over one loss. Where is the perspective realizing of the tremendous strides we have made as a basketball program and just a short two years!!?

So please, enough. Go somewhere else and find a new team complain and spew hate about. Don't bring it here with our Hoyas. One thing about building a winning program is changing the culture. I think the culture and climate of this board needs to change. Its just too damn negative when it comes to your so-called favorite team.

Winning is a culture that is built--effort should be automatic and if anyone honestly thinks Brandon Bowman has brought top level effort to each game, they aren't watching or don't know what competing is about--I could care if the guy scores a hoop--it's not what basketball is about--it's about competing, doing any/everything you can to win a game and improving your game over the time you spend at a University. III has gotten improvement from Bowman but Bowman's decision to enter NBA Draft means he had aspirations as a Professional Basketball player at the HIGHEST LEVEL--well that means if you are a 6'9 SF/SG, you better know how to handle the basketball and play with strength and assertiveness. The mistakes he makes in games are those of a first year player who has never played at this level--it's maddeningly inconsistent and he tends to sulk when he doesn't score--if he scores--you get a good game. When someone performs with effort/intensity--they should get praised which I have done for Bowman and anyone--when they play like garbage--they get taken to task. It's part of life and if you aspire to be a Pro and see yourself in that light--you better not flinch when those are critical of your game--which is inconsistent, marginal and level of a decent role player on average CBB team. I can accept that skill level--but refuse to accept marginal effort--which has no limits--you don't see him diving, hustling, doing any/everything he can--which you did/do see from guys who understand what a Georgetown uniform is about.

Remember what fan is short for and it's a place we can vent and share our frustrations but I don't want to hear people catch crap for wanting this team to win or expect them to bring their best effort/level of play at this time of the season--I dont' expect to win every game or any championships but I do expect to get best effort and see team improve from opening game to last game and for the past two seasons, this team has stunk down the stretch--and not in losing--in games they HAD/SHOULD win--SJU, Providence and now USF. Losing to Nova, WVU, and Marquette is understandable and acceptible in Nova/WVU game's case--Marquette game was a crappy effort but the losses I'm furious about have no excuses--it's not about "A culture of winning needing to be built"--it's about who wants to win more--do you have the passion to win and refuse to accept your fate? If you have guys diving, fighting, clawing and they get beat--that is acceptible--when you just don't bring it as a team/individual that is grounds for a tongue lashing and someone needs to bring this up or it will NEVER change.

[geedell]

rdf said:

Winning is a culture that is built--effort should be automatic and if anyone honestly thinks Brandon Bowman has brought top level effort to each game, they aren't watching or don't know what competing is about--I could care if the guy scores a hoop--it's not what basketball is about--it's about competing, doing any/everything you can to win a game and improving your game over the time you spend at a University. III has gotten improvement from Bowman but Bowman's decision to enter NBA Draft means he had aspirations as a Professional Basketball player at the HIGHEST LEVEL--well that means if you are a 6'9 SF/SG, you better know how to handle the basketball and play with strength and assertiveness. The mistakes he makes in games are those of a first year player who has never played at this level--it's maddeningly inconsistent and he tends to sulk when he doesn't score--if he scores--you get a good game. When someone performs with effort/intensity--they should get praised which I have done for Bowman and anyone--when they play like garbage--they get taken to task. It's part of life and if you aspire to be a Pro and see yourself in that light--you better not flinch when those are critical of your game--which is inconsistent, marginal and level of a decent role player on average CBB team. I can accept that skill level--but refuse to accept marginal effort--which has no limits--you don't see him diving, hustling, doing any/everything he can--which you did/do see from guys who understand what a Georgetown uniform is about.

Remember what fan is short for and it's a place we can vent and share our frustrations but I don't want to hear people catch crap for wanting this team to win or expect them to bring their best effort/level of play at this time of the season--I dont' expect to win every game or any championships but I do expect to get best effort and see team improve from opening game to last game and for the past two seasons, this team has stunk down the stretch--and not in losing--in games they HAD/SHOULD win--SJU, Providence and now USF. Losing to Nova, WVU, and Marquette is understandable and acceptible in Nova/WVU game's case--Marquette game was a crappy effort but the losses I'm furious about have no excuses--it's not about "A culture of winning needing to be built"--it's about who wants to win more--do you have the passion to win and refuse to accept your fate? If you have guys diving, fighting, clawing and they get beat--that is acceptible--when you just don't bring it as a team/individual that is grounds for a tongue lashing and someone needs to bring this up or it will NEVER change.

The man makes sense

[RockawayHoya]

donkdonk said:

way and rockaway, people basically said that Bowman played poorly (in addition to others). It's you that stretches that into "throwing players under the bus." People have said that it is a terrible loss and rightly questioned the ability of this team to go far in the Tourney - that shouldn't be enough to "make you sick."

Seniors need to step up on college basketball teams at this time of the year. I'm curious how we are to fully analyze lousy play if we can't analyze individual players.

We have come a long way in two years but people find a loss like tonight to be just the reason not to get complacent.

If you were in HoyaChat during the game with a lot of the same people who have posted on this board after the game, you would know that Brandon was indeed" thrown under the bus." Repeatedly. Every time he made a good play, someone would say "finally" or "about time." And every time he did something bad, they'd be calling for him to be removed from the team. And I'm sick of it. Is he our savior? No. Did he play poorly tonight? You bet he did. But goddamnit, he doesn't deserve about 80% of the crap he's gotten every time we lose, especially if the entire team was asleep for 40 minutes.

But I completely agree with the total lack of effort. I just don't agree with placing the blame on one guy when the entire team and coaching staff should all be at fault for not coming out with a better performance tonight.

[jerseyhoya34]

Some good thoughts in here... I don't like the idea of people attacking others who generally post to seek answers and analyze games/players etc. That's what being a fan is about IMO. If you cheer for something and don't know what you're cheering for, that makes you a WG fan.

The reality here is and has been for the past two seasons that we're never as bad or as good as we look. Were we as good as the Duke game, no. We would beat Duke 2-3 times out of 10, but we got one that counted. Were we as bad as the first USF game, no. We beat Duke only days later, and it takes a monumental effort and execution whenever Duke is beaten. So, we're going to have ups/downs on the board as a result. The downs will always appear worse than the reality they reflect, and likewise with the ups. It is true of any message board I've seen, but, in all honesty, most are worse than HoyaTalk in this department.

Anyway, this is why I also get frustrated by Bowman. He played as well as he's ever played against Duke, but, for every Duke, there are a handful of games like USF. He scored some points, but the turnovers were just deadly.

[RockawayHoya]

There were also more than several people who laughed at my post months ago about "dropping a game or two that we should win." Those people just assumed we'd dodge every land mine along the course of our BE schedule. Well guess what, we're not an elite team yet, a team that can just count their wins against bad teams before the games are played. Will we get to that point eventually? I think so. But I said 10-6 in December, and here we are at 10-6. Obviously tonight's game has left a bitter taste in my mouth, but I said over two months ago I'd be happy with 10-6, and I'd be lying if I wasn't happy with our performance overall THIS YEAR.

[RDF]

Rockaway--I agree 100% BUT......you have people who don't like III getting any crap for his failures in his opening two seasons as coach--which have been down stretch of Big East seasons. I brought this up--still support III and think we're going to see great things from him--but I also think reality isn't something a few people on this board want to deal with.

Reality is that III's teams lost to bad Providence and SJU teams when they needed wins last year--this year they lose to a PIG AWFUL USF team with a BYE on the line in BET---that is bad and failure anyway you shape it but especially when you have a week to prepare and a previous close game to use as motivation. Why motivation is needed in March speaks volumes to what this program has had to deal with for years and what III is trying to change--but it's reality--he didn't get it done--yet.

As for Bowman--Way was mentioning him--and I responded as to why I am critical of him--but I am critical of the team in general too--just tend to be very hard on him because I expect more of a SR and one who views himself as a big time player but has refused to show anything reminiscent of what big time players do as their career progresses.

I'm about as diehard as they come and will NEVER change but I'm also one who would rather see effort and hustle in a loss then lacksidasical, passive efforts in wins--because one style/approach will win over long haul and lead you to bigger things in future and other will always keep you mediocre and in need of improving and searching for motivational tactics to get people to play hard--which is a waste of time. IF you can't play hard each game and don't bring effort consistently, sit and let others play.

[jerseyhoya34]

The reality here is that BB would have been benched on most top-flite teams during this game. He did some good things, but those were ultimately ruined by carelessness. Like any board, the lows are going to be ridden to their fullest, but when is the point where BB deserves some measure of harsh criticism? He's a senior at this point and aspires to play professional basketball. He's in the toughest college league in the history of the game and starting on a top 25 team. Due to the nature of the beast, I think it is almost naive to think the players can/will be sheltered from the criticism. Heck... Before the SU game, JT2 was on the seniors' case on his own radio show. He did it publicly and too a wider audience than you find on a GU message board where many understand the game. There was also an article in a national newspaper about his disappointing play.

[FLHoya]

jerseyhoya34 said:

The reality here is that BB would have been benched on most top-flite teams during this game. He did some good things, but those were ultimately ruined by carelessness. Like any board, the lows are going to be ridden to their fullest, but when is the point where BB deserves some measure of harsh criticism? He's a senior at this point and aspires to play professional basketball. He's in the toughest college league in the history of the game and starting on a top 25 team. Due to the nature of the beast, I think it is almost naive to think the players can/will be sheltered from the criticism. Heck... Before the SU game, JT2 was on the seniors' case on his own radio show. He did it publicly and too a wider audience than you find on a GU message board where many understand the game. There was also an article in a national newspaper about his disappointing play.

I hate to resort to this kind of argument, and I'll explain myself later...but having been at the game, Brandon should absolutely have been out there near the end of the game. He was probably the best thing we had going, in fact, for stretches of the game in the late 1st/2nd halves. There's a tendency to overdramatize his mistakes--it MUST be a Bad Brandon moment if he travelled--but esp. on the radio, his less "dramatic" contributions are underappreciated.

[RockawayHoya]

Agreed, RDF. III should not be immune from blame for this game. I have more faith than some in his substitution patterns (I for one believe you live and die with your best, and there was no indication from Rich at least that fatigue was playing a role tonight), but the fact everyone came out flat tonight and didn't respond at all save one run to close the 1st half is his responsibility. He definitely deserves criticism, but obviously he has turned this program around much faster than we would have expected 24 months ago, and if you had told me when he was hired that he'd get us back to the Dance in 2 seasons, I would have taken it in a heartbeat. So while he deserves credit for that, he also deserves criticism for tonight. No problems there.

JH, I also agree with you that BB deserves harsh criticism for his play tonight. But my point is, no one on this board is on Jeff when he shot 1 for 5 from the field, had 4 turnovers, and allowed Solomon Jones to go 9 for 10 from the field. No one is complaining that after the first 5 minutes Ashanti basically disappeared. And no one is complaing that Roy threw up an egg. Sure, BB deserves a large part of the blame because he is a senior, but if we're going to celebrate Jeff/Roy when they perform well, they should catch flack when they don't, regardless of what class they're in.

[jerseyhoya34]

I am looking for your thoughts and post, FL.

Maybe your thoughts will quell some of the anger, but it will take a lot to explain the 6-8 turnovers or whatever it was. In the kind of offense we run, we simply cannot afford that. Your point about "best thing going" is sad if true.

[1984alloveragain]

Thanks FL.---I like how these know-it-alls can make such arguements, after a game "THEY DID NOT EVEN SEE!!!"

[RDF]

jerseyhoya34 said:

The reality here is that BB would have been benched on most top-flite teams during this game. He did some good things, but those were ultimately ruined by carelessness. Like any board, the lows are going to be ridden to their fullest, but when is the point where BB deserves some measure of harsh criticism? He's a senior at this point and aspires to play professional basketball. He's in the toughest college league in the history of the game and starting on a top 25 team. Due to the nature of the beast, I think it is almost naive to think the players can/will be sheltered from the criticism. Heck... Before the SU game, JT2 was on the seniors' case on his own radio show. He did it publicly and too a wider audience than you find on a GU message board where many understand the game. There was also an article in a national newspaper about his disappointing play.

Excellent post Jersey and I'd add that I believe III and Staff feel same way because one of the main traits in the upcoming recruits is the fact they aren't "Bashful" about what they expect to come in and do--be it individually or as a team. Rivers has taken some heat for calling out the poor play of guards or saying he's "coming to take someone's job" that is exactly WHAT WE NEED in terms of attitude and what turns things around--not that talk gets it done but rather have a player who isn't passive and afraid--which some guys play like at critical moments.

III and Staff aren't going to throw players under bus and I dont' expect them to--but don't think that some of the things fans are critical of they don't share viewpoints--especially with attitude/motivational areas. Do SR's really need to get motivated? And in March? WTH are they doing in a Major Conference then? Just go to a Mid Major and be one of those goon teams who are excited to be in NCAA's and sit around TV hoping CBS or ESPN shows them dancing and acting like rubes when they get selected--more than likely you'll never make it there either because players who need to be motivated are wastes of time--potential means nothing--if you never work to turn that into production.

III has done a great job in starting to move things in right direction but the losses we've suffered that have me upset are ones that I think any fan has a right to be upset about--they had nothing to do with developing the program and more to do with failure to execute or sticking with players who haven't realized that you have to EARN your place and improvement--it's not handed out.

The way I sum up Bowman is he thinks his performance and our teams win against Duke means more then rest of season--and that is garbage--if you show capabilities in Duke game and in my opinion his best game as a Hoya--the Pitt game--he needs to bring that EVERY game--he rebounded, defended, hustled, did it all--and in other games he's been MIA--which sums his career up and this program up--which is why III's going after guys who bring effort but also talent and attitude. So in that move--you are seeing him address what most of us have a problem with--and it'll be interesting to see if the team takes next step--which I'm hopeful they will.

[FLHoya]

rockawayhoya said:

But my point is, no one on this board is on Jeff when he shot 1 for 5 from the field, had 4 turnovers, and allowed Solomon Jones to go 9 for 10 from the field.

Oh, gimme a few hours. His defensive performance was absolutely shocking.

[jerseyhoya34]

Part of the anger from me is most of the negatives you mentioned are known and won't be overcome easily this season.

1. Jeff is not a great post defender. I know and recognize that, so I don't expect him to have a night like 2nd half Pitt against Gray every time out.

2. AC has disappeared frequently during stretches of games, or, at least, he usually falls in the 8-12 point range, and the points where come wherever they do. Rare is the game like what he had against Oregon. He has games like that, but maybe 2-3 per season.

3. Roy does throw up eggs, but we usually can see or, at least, understand when/why they happen. It is usually matchups and also how he's used. JT3 goes to the Owens lineup, and it is hard for Roy to get back into the flow of the game when that's done for stretches. But, I can at least figure him out and be accepting of true limitations.

With Bowman, I am just at a loss for answers sometimes and never know what might happen when he takes the floor for a game. Is it that he only gets hyped up for the Dukes and does not care as much about the USF's? Why is he so temperamental after certain mistakes and react different after others? Maybe it is just me, but I never quite know what his limitations/problems will be in a particular game, which makes it more frustrating than those of sophomores who are working hard and developing their games but still have physical limitations that cannot be overcome during the course of even a single BE season.

[Highsmith]

rockawayhoya said:

donkdonk said:

way and rockaway, people basically said that Bowman played poorly (in addition to others). It's you that stretches that into "throwing players under the bus." People have said that it is a terrible loss and rightly questioned the ability of this team to go far in the Tourney - that shouldn't be enough to "make you sick."

Seniors need to step up on college basketball teams at this time of the year. I'm curious how we are to fully analyze lousy play if we can't analyze individual players.

We have come a long way in two years but people find a loss like tonight to be just the reason not to get complacent.

If you were in HoyaChat during the game with a lot of the same people who have posted on this board after the game, you would know that Brandon was indeed" thrown under the bus." Repeatedly. Every time he made a good play, someone would say "finally" or "about time." And every time he did something bad, they'd be calling for him to be removed from the team. And I'm sick of it. Is he our savior? No. Did he play poorly tonight? You bet he did. But goddamnit, he doesn't deserve about 80% of the crap he's gotten every time we lose, especially if the entire team was asleep for 40 minutes.

But I completely agree with the total lack of effort. I just don't agree with placing the blame on one guy when the entire team and coaching staff should all be at fault for not coming out with a better performance tonight.

The reason the focus continually goes back to Bowman is simple......he is SUPPOSED to be the leader of this team. Why? He is a senior who "supposedly" has NBA aspirations- that should be the type of player the rest of the team can look to and count on when times get tough and when others are slipping.

Look at other teams who played in tough games today and see who stepped up. WVU/Cincy- Gansey, Pittsnoggle, Hicks and White....all seniors, all stepped up. UConn/Ville- Anderson and Brown stepped up for UConn....you guessed it, seniors!! Wash/Arizona- Brandon Roy had a big game......yup, senior. These are 3 of many games where teams were in close games, in March, with tournament appearances and seedings at stake and each time there were seniors who stepped up and delivered for their teams. Ours didn't.

Can we be too hard on these kids sometimes? Probably, but I would think that would be OK. If I were one of the players on this team, the time I'd be worried is when fans of the team stopped caring what I did. We expect more from Brandon and that should make him proud and happy that there are so many fans out there who think he can be a great player. After a loss like this, they should expect their fans to be Editeded.....if no one cared about the outcome of this game, that wouldn't be much of a fanbase, would it? Imagine coming back after this game and checking this board and seeing everyone talking about how they didn't really care that we lost or that it was OK that our senior leader had 8 turnovers because we can't expect too much from him or that seedings and tournament appearances don't matter to us......would you want to play for fans like that? Not me. I would want my fans to be angry as hell and expect more out of me next time- if they didn't, I'd wonder what kind of fans they really were.

The bottom line is that at this level of college basketball and especially at this time of year, seniors.....especially 4-year starter seniors who have ideas about the NBA....are supposed to step up and lead the team. This hasn't happened and we, as fans, have a right to be upset and to express our displeasure. In fact, we owe it to the team to do JUST that.