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Post by hoyalove4ever on Feb 28, 2006 8:54:52 GMT -5
I just read this article and it is very disturbing. It is another example of how the NCAA does NOT have its stuff together.
I would echo the sentiment that although I trust III's discretion re: Marc, we should try to steer way clear of these schools in the future. If an athlete needs help, send him to Hargrave or some other legitimate place. At least we know that III is not one of those coaches "grade/ score shopping."
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Feb 28, 2006 9:10:43 GMT -5
It is a little odd that you would take a stretch on a guy who is not a top 20 recruit. Unless he completely turned things around, these are reaches that GU does not need to make. I hope he does great and graduates in four years. But towards the end of JTII career, there were too many stretches made with guys who were not ready to roll academically (Vic, Brunner, Thomas to name a few).
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GPHoya
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Post by GPHoya on Feb 28, 2006 9:38:34 GMT -5
This morning's Times has another extensive story on this subject though neither Georgetown nor Egerson are mentioned. GW's President Trachtenberg is quoted as saying that he is "embarassed" by GW's involvement with recruiting two kids from Lutheran Christian. I hope someone with greater skill can post the link.
Setting aside the wisdom of Trachtenberg's quote in his position, I have to say that I share the sentiment. In the best case, we were completely careless and allowed ourselves to be defrauded by this so-called "prep" school. I wish the best to Egerson and view him as a victim more than anything else. That said, Georgetown should not be connected with recruiting from these diploma mills as nothing takes the air out of the ball like stories like these that puncture myths that we would like to believe.
Before this thread gets hijacked by those who will attack the Times, GW, the failure of inner city schools, the evils of Prop 48, the Buckley Amendment or any other tangent, we should look in in the mirror about our culpability in admitting student-athletes based on academic records achieved at a prep school that does not actually exist and that does nothing to prepare the student.
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Post by bawlmerhoya on Feb 28, 2006 9:41:42 GMT -5
Wha? For years, this board was filled with posts bemoaning the fact that G'town was not involved with top flight recruits. Now, we have a lot of top recruits, but we don't want to be involved with shady prep schools. Gimme a break. If Egerson was a starter/key contributor, we would not have this attack of conscience. Do you really want a roster made up of Esherick recruits? I don't think so.
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CO_Hoya
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Post by CO_Hoya on Feb 28, 2006 9:42:39 GMT -5
Link to 2nd NYTimes article. Oh, and Egerson is an Esherick recruit.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Feb 28, 2006 9:53:40 GMT -5
Our roster right now IS primarily made up of Esh recruits. Wallace, Sapp, and Josh were III recruits; Tay and Marc were guys Esh was on but III sealed the deal and deserves a lot of the credit.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Feb 28, 2006 9:57:57 GMT -5
It is a little odd that you would take a stretch on a guy who is not a top 20 recruit. Unless he completely turned things around, these are reaches that GU does not need to make. I hope he does great and graduates in four years. But towards the end of JTII career, there were too many stretches made with guys who were not ready to roll academically (Vic, Brunner, Thomas to name a few). 1)Lets stop the Brunner revisionism. He ended up being a nutcase who was a danger to himself and others. Well, somewhat of a nutcase. But he was academically sound. He scored over 1100 on his SATs, people. He was president of his high school student body. He had not previously shown any signs of going all "crazy" like he did his final month at GU and especially his time at Fresno State. There was no way to predict he was going to be so uncomfortable at Gtown. JT can't be faulted for that. I do not know why people keep this myth alive that Brunner was a horrible high school student. Its not just kids with bad grades who become problematic in college after all. 2)By Thomas do you mean Harvey Thomas? If so Esherick was the head coach when Thomas was recruited, not Thompson. Yes, JT got involved with the recruiting of Thomas at Esh's request but Thomas was never technically a JT recruit.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Feb 28, 2006 9:59:53 GMT -5
Good points MCI.
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GPHoya
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Post by GPHoya on Feb 28, 2006 10:00:59 GMT -5
I don't care whether a recruit is top 20, top 100 or numero uno, I don't want to participate, directly or indirectly, knowingly or negligently, in fraud or contribute to a sham prep school. A story making reference to Georgetown basketball has appeared on page one of the NYT (above the fold at that) once this year and this is not the story I want to read. It has to stop and we have some work to do to undo the damage. We are Georgetown and those words have to mean something.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Feb 28, 2006 10:06:01 GMT -5
Our roster right now IS primarily made up of Esh recruits. Wallace, Sapp, and Josh were III recruits; Tay and Marc were guys Esh was on but III sealed the deal and deserves a lot of the credit. What? Spann and Egerson are III's recruits. It doesn't matter if Esh was recruiting them also because there isn't any indication they would have gone to GU if Esherick was still the coach. III came in and went after those guys. No one forced him to. He recruited those players because he thought they were good. Wallace Thornton Sapp Egerson Spann Those are III's players. The amazing thing is that III has won these two first seasons mostly with guys whom he didn't recruit for his system. By comparison Jay Wright started relying mostly on players he recruited (this current senior class) by his second season at Nova and still it took him three years with them (and his fourth overall at Villanova) to make the tournament. The problematic thing is that III seemed to have very little use for the actual players he brought in (with Wallace being the exception).
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Feb 28, 2006 10:11:03 GMT -5
Wha? For years, this board was filled with posts bemoaning the fact that G'town was not involved with top flight recruits. Now, we have a lot of top recruits, but we don't want to be involved with shady prep schools. Gimme a break. If Egerson was a starter/key contributor, we would not have this attack of conscience. Oh, yes this board would. This is the same board that have posters whom to this day do not like the fact that Iverson went to GU. Also Gtown can get involved with top flight recruits WITHOUT having to take guys from questionable prep programs (see Rivers, Macklin, Thornton, Summers, Freeman, etc). But what's done is done and I hope Egerson flourishes here at GU. That being said I'm glad the Hoyas never got Vernon Goodridge. Even if his grades were not a problem it would be even worse for GU's image if two players from that program were currently on the team.
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HealyHoya
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Post by HealyHoya on Feb 28, 2006 11:14:13 GMT -5
Putting aside the fact that it certainly appears Egde's coach broke the law, I think the analysis here needs to rest more on our confidence in JTIII. I can appreciate our collective interest in protecting the integrity of "our" program, but do we really think JTIII is the type of man, never mind coach, who would sacrifice the ideals of the University for a few ballers? I don't. I don't think we need to worry about Lawrence Phillips-types on the Hilltop.
Marc's background is the exception to the normal georgetown recruit. I think that, in combination with what we all know about JTIII, suggests that Marc has something to offer both on and off the court.
IMO.
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Post by GPHoya on Feb 28, 2006 12:07:20 GMT -5
It is reasonable to assume these facts based on the reports published by the NY Times. A student enrolls at Lutheran Christian with a very weak secondary record which shows dramatic improvement based upon the grades awarded by Lutheran Christian in the prep year. If one looks no further or deeper, Lutheran Christian and the student have worked a miracle and the student is now ready to do college level work.
In the ordinary exercise of diligence, it is reasonable to look into the circumstances of this miracle. When everyone on the inside of college basketball seems to know the reality of what is happening at Lutheran Christian, it is hard for me to assume that our program was duped. If we were simply using Lutheran Christian to launder an unacceptable academic record, we would be left with the usual suspicious rationale: (a) almost everybody else does it so how can we compete without doing it; (b) Prop 48 sets arbitrary barriers that are immoral and racist so anything to get around them is justified; (c) the kid deserves a second chance and this is the only way to get him one; (d) winning is all that really matters and this whole student-athlete thing is completely secondary; and (e) even if a kid has no real business being in college, we will try to teach him something, develop him more fully as a human being and leave him in a better place than most of the other professional franchises with whom we are competing.
Except for (e)-- which is a very slim reed--none of these rationale are what comes to mind for me when the phrase "We are Georgetown" is spoken.
I trust that there are many at Georgetown who share the view of GW's President and that steps are being taken to ensure that this does not happen again. The coaching staff which has done much to honor Georgetown for which it rightly deserves credit, needs to accept the consequence that it has drawn on the bank of credibility it has otherwise earned and that its judgments and recommendations about recruits must be subjected to more rigorous independent scrutiny.
If this situation repeats, no one at any level in the University will be able to claim the ignorance and indignation asserted by GW's President and we will have lost our credibility as a a member in high standing in the academy of higher education simply to be ranked 20th in the coaches poll. Even to someone with values as warped as mine, it is not worth the trade.
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Post by DoubleOhHoya on Feb 28, 2006 12:50:15 GMT -5
The problematic thing is that III seemed to have very little use for the actual players he brought in (with Wallace being the exception). Geez, give 'em a chance. Four of those guys are freshman, and two play in every game. I'll bet each of those freshman is playing signficant minutes by their senior years.
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Post by DonkDonk on Feb 28, 2006 13:14:48 GMT -5
Forgive my dinosaur recollection of Prop 48, but doesn't it require at least a 700 on the SAT? Are there new rules that allow for a sliding SAT below 700 if they pulled in a decent GPA?
I never understood the coaches who got upset with Prop 48. They feared that it would allow fewer black athletes and more whites to get scholarships...when IMO it would probably just result in smarter black (but worse) athletes getting scholarships.
Also, 'the people that wanted top flite recruits at any cost should be quiet' argument doesn't fly here since it doesn't appear that Egerson was really top flite recruit. His academic info should be kept between the NCAA and recruiting schools only. Coaches should only be notified if a player is ineligible.
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Feb 28, 2006 14:33:06 GMT -5
what's the new number for SAT grades since the switch to the new SAT.
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