Why we may be down on certain players..

[Massholya]

There has been something that has been bothering me all season with this team and I really wasn't able to put my finger on it until today. Commraderie. This certainly dovetails into why I've been down on certain players on this team because I don't think our seniors have done a very good job of culturing this. Unlike some of the teams we play, I don't notice enough communication between our players on the floor. Getting each other pumped up, etc. Our huddles during free throws look like business meetings.

I guess this is a little bit of a leadership issue and not everyone is at fault. For all his defensive shortcomings, for instance, jw seems to be better than most of the guys in this respect. We look way too passive, too mechanical on the floor. I want to see some enthusiasm for crying out loud. I don't know whether this is a by product of being so mediocre the last few years or just the sum total of the personalities on this team, but either way I think it makes us way too comfortable with losing.

I don't know how everyone else feels about this but for me, this lack of commraderie makes us quite a lot less fun to watch than we should be. We have some talent. We're shooting much better this year. We're dunking more balls this year and yet I watch us and I find myself kind of ho-humming along like the guys seem to be. Anyway, just a thought.

[lichoya68]

guts hustle and meanness that would be good go hoyas get guts hustle and be mean vs. those bull s ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

[butler]

You are dead on with this. Too many quite personalities, no vocal leaders, no guys with a crazy desire/hustle that infects others. It is definately something we are missing. I think Wallace has it a little bit, hibbert has shown some flashes, and so has Sapp. But none of them are sufficient. As much as I dislike Duke, look at the difference in their behavior and ours on the court. Could you imagine anybody on our team (save Wallace or Sapp) slapping the floor as the other team brings the ball up? Can you imagine somebody playing with the energy/desire that AI brings? There is a reason those qualities are valued in sports and it's because it energizes others and provides an extra boost -- kind of like a raucous home crowd -- whichis another thing we don't have.

[the_way]

butler said:

You are dead on with this. Too many quite personalities, no vocal leaders, no guys with a crazy desire/hustle that infects others. It is definately something we are missing. I think Wallace has it a little bit, hibbert has shown some flashes, and so has Sapp. But none of them are sufficient. As much as I dislike Duke, look at the difference in their behavior and ours on the court. Could you imagine anybody on our team (save Wallace or Sapp) slapping the floor as the other team brings the ball up? Can you imagine somebody playing with the energy/desire that AI brings? There is a reason those qualities are valued in sports and it's because it energizes others and provides an extra boost -- kind of like a raucous home crowd -- whichis another thing we don't have.

This issue has plagued this team for years, and was a main problem with Mike Sweetney. Jeff has it, but its not obvious to the naked eye. Jeff is like Tim Duncan. They both aren't laid back. The fire and passion they have is there internally and expressed in it different way. They are not demonstrative, but the passion is still there. Cook exerts leadership too. But in terms of having that tenacious and gung-ho type player, that puts the team on his back, that type of guy isn't on this team. I think Ewing, Jr. will bring some tenacity next year, but really I think there could be some more gumption with this team. We are just too lethargic out there. We get manhandled easily. Armstrong was just punking us on the inside at times.

[Massholya]

I think we have too many guys who supposedly "lead by example" which is a concept that I think gets way too much credit. By and large people who are supposedly leading by example are mostly just doing the job they are supposed to be doing. That's not leading in my opinion. Sure a leader also has to be a good example, but to really be a leader you need to inspire those around you to believe in themselves and the common mission. Clearly we don't have anyone playing that role on this team right now, and I think it is really affecting our overall performance. It is especially evident on our bench where the guys might as well be sitting one row back given how into the games they appear at times.

[hoya73]

Agree with the need. Wallace my main candidate for team energy leader because he's shown as much or more as anyone else so far, he's the point guard (even if Jeff runs most of the offensive sets), and if he steps up to that role he can play it for 2 more seasons. So Wallace for demonstrative leader and Jeff for quiet passion.
But don't slap the floor a la Duke. That's ok for junior high or CYO hotshots but it's just stupid looking after that.

[Massholya]

agreed. I definitely can do without the floor-slapping.

[KHoyaNYC]

Wallace has the most guts of anyone on our team.

[bluemonk]

I keep reading about enthusiasm, and being pumped for the game, has anyone noticed if they still do the circle before the games to get fired up?

[nychoya3]

Bleh...maybe we look slower than UConn because we are slower than UConn. On offense, we need to run our sets and be in control. When we get excited, we dribble off our feet or Brandon tries to jump over a 6'11'' center. As for defense, we play hard, but slapping the floor won't stop Marcus Williams from getting a step on you. I really do believe our effort is good. It can always be better, but I don't see it as a major problem.

Guys jumping around and yelling during games might make some of us feel better. They might get the fans more involved. But I highly doubt it would result in any more wins.

[fsohoya]

Absolutely right! Most of our guys look like they have the 10,000 yard stare both at timeouts and when they are playing. It would be nice to see some fire.

[GIGAFAN99]

You know what? UConn is 3 to 10 points better than us. That's the story. If we play this way every time, we'll be fine. I went to the game and we missed some wide open looks. Fine. They'll fall most games.

But the story of this game was of a team about 7 points better than one team that won by 7. The Hoyas just have to re-group and play hard in front of a friendly crowd this week.

[1984alloveragain]

I've been thinking a lot lately about some of the things in this thread and have to say I agree with much of what has been said. It's hard for me to not notice that we haven't made a serious run in the NCAA's WITHOUT having that special someone (at least one) with a KILLER INSTINCT. Someone who put the fear of GOD in the opponents' chest when HE had the ball (in crunch time especially). For most college teams, that guy is usually a guard or a forward who handles the rock on a regular basis, and can come out routinely and hurt you from deep. But for us at BIG MAN U., this KILLER has also been a center (Ewing and Mourning especially).
Consider the years we didn't have those two dominant big men and still made deep runs to the Great 8: Sleepy in the early 80's; Reggie in '87; Smitty in '88 and '89 and Iverson in '96. Those guys won big games (at home or on the road) and not only "lead by example", but had the talent and the gumption to put the DAGGER in the bucket at crunch time to take games over; dominate them; or flat out say: "get on MY back guys---I'm not gonna just take us over the hump--but I'm gonna do it with some PIZZAZZ!!" They WON BIG games for us with CONSISTENCY.
Now, I LOVE our team, and I'd bet most if not all of us would NOT trade ANY of our classy winners for anyone on the twerps or ucon-victs... Our guys are not only great athletes and basketball players, they are incredible people off the court and WINNERS in life. But as of yet, I don't see the type of KILLER described above at this point on this team. It's still possible one or more of the seniors could TAKE that step, or that one of the younger guys can still develop that attitude (Smitty didn't really "come out" till the 2nd Round of the NCAA of his SOPHOMORE year). At this point, I think our guys score and play by committee; the whole group (of the top 6 or 7) complementing each other and scoring and playing by committee without that KILLER among them stepping up. There's still plenty of time for someone on this current team to emerge as "THE MAN", so I'm not saying we don't have one, only hoping one emerges soon.
The other night, I chuckled watching the sixers play and notice how Iverson ALWAYS has that SCOWL on his face, even if he has 40 and his team is up 10. It's not hard to see the HEART of that winner laid out on the court game in and game out--- LOVE to see that!! Then, I look at Jeff Green throughout this year not being as successful on the court, miss layups and dunks and other bunnies and just have that glazed stare... Love the guy; happy he's a Hoya; wouldn't trade him for ANYONE in America (and I really mean that)--- but would LOVE to see him play WITH A FIRE IN HIS HEART; with some unbridaled PASSION... Opponents would cringe if he did.
Ewing Jr. has me curious, reading what I have about him, and seeing him be the biggest cheerleader at games has me hoping he can step up in the spotlight and be a major "go-to-guy" for us; and BIG TICKET and Freeman sound like they can possibly be these type of players as well, so the future is bright. The present group is growing and improving in so many ways we may not catch at this point because of the record, but they ARE playing really good basketball and are putting in place a winning way, even if they seem to be totally comprised of "role players" (that is till one or more of them can STEP UP to the NEXT level).
JT III inherited most of this group, and has done an incredible job teaching the game of basketball to them-- they are light years ahead of where they were and where they would be had the previous regime still been here. I'm so happy to see us have games with under 12 turnovers and actually seeing an offense run, rather than what we had before him. He definetly has things moving in the right direction, but I'd love to see him add a little pizazze to our game-plan as well. Example: with all the athletes we have on this team, I can't believe we can't set up plays for DJ, BB or Green to finish with authority, even from some of our half court sets. Even high school teams have that diagonal, no-look alley oop pass for someone to slam and bring the house down which can fire up your team; make the opponent play on their heels; heighten a full court defensive intensity leading to easy baskets; and generally bring out fans who then want to be a part of that excitement.
Who knows, it might even give birth to.....a "KILLER".

[Nitrorebel]

I've been saying this for a while on the other board, so sorry if I sound like a broken record, but what you guys are all pointing out is a direct function of the recruiting of the past few years. Basically we got role players from good schools/AAU teams (Bobo was the 6th man on Westchester, Ashanti was basically the 4th or 5th option on offense), but mostly players that played in bad leagues and/or AAU teams. Jeff is the sole exception of a guy who led his team to the top in a tough league, and basically he only did so for his senior year. Jeff never played top-level AAU team until AFTER his senior year and never played on a national level.

When you land a Summers, Freeman or Ticket you're getting guys that have DOMINATED with the best players in the country for years at AAU games, sneaker camps and even with their HS. Freeman and Ticket are playing the best HS teams day in and day out, and Summers is playing in a tough league as well. These guys are gonna come in with a completely different attitude towards competition, winning and leadership than Crawford, Sead, DJ or Wallace, all who played in terrible leagues and had no summer experience to speak of.

Obviously not all the top recruits are automatically charismatic or leaders just coz they can ball, but what they guarantee is knowing what it takes to win and how to succeed against the BEST. Our current batch had no exposure to that at HS, nor have they really had success at G-town. Their lack of killer instinct and leadership is the direct result of that.

[RBHoya]

Good posts, both, I really think you're on to something Nitro. I mean Cook and Bowman experienced winning in high school, but they didn't really lead their teams to wins, they were not the primary options and that's what we expect them to be here. They are good complementary players on a winning team, but here we've expected them to be leaders of a winning team. And as you said most of our other guys played in less competetive leagues prior to coming to Georgetown, so while they have some talent they are not necessarily accustomed to WINNING against top level talent, and having the killer instinct to do so. I certainly think that there's still hope for the current group, and that that lack of experience is something they can overcome. But when you look at the young talent in the program and signed on, it's certainly encouraging in this respect.

[MCIGuy]

nitrorebel said:

I've been saying this for a while on the other board, so sorry if I sound like a broken record, but what you guys are all pointing out is a direct function of the recruiting of the past few years. Basically we got role players from good schools/AAU teams (Bobo was the 6th man on Westchester,

I think this is a tad incorrect. I believe for most of his time at Westchester as an upperclassmen Bowman was actually a starter. There was a period of time in which he was the 6th man but I know he was starting when he was a senior and in fact was the third leading scorer on the team. By the time his last season was coming to an end not only was he jumping up the charts in terms of rankings, but he was considered to be perhaps the second best prospect (in terms of down the road potential) only behind Trevor Ariza. That's based on comments of Cali fans who kept up with the team. And by the way has the top dog and McDAA player on that team, Hassan Adams, had that much better of a college career in terms of production? Adams was fortunate to be part of an Arizona program that has been on a roll and kept churning out players. However he has always been a power forward in a shooting guard's body. And now with all that talent gone from Zona he seems unable to keep his team from dropping out of the Top 25. Not only that , Arizona seems in danger of missing the tourney too.

Lets also remember that Bowman was chosen to play in that international tournament in Germany and was the leading scorer for the team and made all tourney selection. He was also MVP of the Capital Classic (not the big game but a lot of talent in that game). Lets try not to act as if Brandon was chop liver. He was a great get for the program at the time and when he announced he was transferring there were quite a few nice programs waiting to take him in. He may not have ever developed his handle, or a pullup jumper or learned to not turn over the ball. But you can't deny he has all the physical tools and size you'd want in a prospect at that position. He didn't hone his skills as he should but he was a very good get for Gtown. He does appear to be better suited being the second or third go-to guy on a team which is why I'm always fond of claiming he would have been a perfec complimentary player for those Zo-Deke teams.

[hoya73]

And I think I remember DJ being on a strong AAU team called the New Orleans Jazz, but you're overall point is valid, Nitrorebel.

[SFHoya99]

In 1984alloveragain's post, is he talking about a GOOD player with a KILLER instinct or just a GREAT player.

If Brandon had Reggie Williams' talent, I'd be disappointed in his ability to take over. If Ashanti Cook was anything near Allen Iverson, I'd be disappointed in his killer instinct.

Sometimes, mentality isn't enough, people. I know if one of these players tried to take over and failed, you'd be all over them for forcing it.

[hoya73]

SF Hoya's correct on that.
Right now, Jeff's the only one with the talent to back up being a takeover guy,
though it's sooo good when DJ gets the confidence in his shot at crucial points in games.
Still, Owens for whatever reason can't turn that on every game.

[1984alloveragain]

Thanks for your thoughts SF. That's exactly my point, that our current guys haven't shown that they have the ability to take over a game and make the opponents sweat big time because they have the rock, especially at crunch time. BB nor AC have, to this point, proven to be more than what I've described in a role player---they haven't shown me that they have the ability to consistantly take over games and THEN ALSO have the KILLER INSTINCT to put the dagger in the heart game in and game out. I think we all agree on that. But it's not out of the question that they, or anyone on the team can take that next step up before the end of this year and BE THE MAN to carry the team and be the one the team can count on for big buckets and big plays at crucial times, so I'm not prepared to write anyone off at this point yet on that potential. I LOVE our team, but they are so far filled with complementary players. I believe that JT III is bringing in guys who can back up their vast abilities with the other ingredients in a winning tradition that has been described above.
Saturday, ANYTIME JJ Redick has the ball ANYWHERE on the floor, most Hoya fans who have seen him play will gasp and wince and pray he has one of his worst shooting days of his career. At the same time, ANY of our Hoyas can touch the ball, and probably not one PUKE fan will really care, confident in the final outcome. We NEED someone who has the Redick (or AI or Reggie) type of effect on the other team. I think they're coming; I hope one's here--- JT III has things moving in that direction. With ESH, we were talking about "missing chains"---- with JT III, we're only talking about the "missing link".