Princeton offense v Princeton offense w/ atheletes

[OldHoyafan]

I have read the phrase "Princeton offense with atheletes" given to describe the Georgetown offense many times. My question now having watched a Princeton based offense without the so called "atheletes"(W. Virginia) beat a Princeton offense with atheletes is, what is supposed to happen with a Princeton offense w/ atheletes? Should it allow for more points to be scored?(Most of the Hoyas games are low scoring compared to the rest of the league) Should it allow for better shooting percentage?( Hoyas are in top 5 in league in this area.) Should it allow for better defense?( Hoyas are near top of the league in points allowed per game defense) Would a Princeton offense with a non- athelete 7'2" 280 pound center be just as effective as a so called Princeton offense with atheletes? I really don't know. The UConn, Syracuse, and Nova games should shed some light on these questions. Does anyone else see other possible bennefits?

[SFHoya99]

Couple of quick thoughts on some good qs:

1. West Virginia is more athletic than most people give them credit for. Young and Gansey are as athletic as any Hoya currently on the roster. JD Collins is very quick -- quicker than our guards, and Herber is also pretty quick for his size. Pittsnogle isn't a super athlete but he is quicker than Roy.

2. We're less than a year and half into the system. If you read the WVU boards, they were calling their system pass-pass-brick until halfway thru last year. Our understanding should improve.

3. Our ppg allowed is low because we play stall ball. Our defense is mediocre for a major conference team on a per possession basis.

What will more athleticism give us?

1. Better defense. The Princeton offense has little to nothing to do with D.
2. A better fast break, something motion teams traditionally don' do.
3. Help make up for weka formation for offensive reobunding (only one guy down low -- it is better if it is Macklin).
4. A more versatile offense. Struggling with motion? You have more ability to go one on one.

That's what I hope. The issue is whether we can recruit better athletes also with the skills necessary to run the offense. Or whether we can adapt the O to mask any skill deficiencies.

[MCIGuy]

sfhoya99 said:

Couple of quick thoughts on some good qs:

1. West Virginia is more athletic than most people give them credit for. Young and Gansey are as athletic as any Hoya currently on the roster.

What's your definition of "athletic"? Don't know much about Young but I have seen enough of Gansey to know that he isn't as athletic as Bowman, DJ, Green, Sapp, Spann. He may be more skilled then some of those guys, he may be a better player, but he isn't as athletic as them.

And if JD Collins is indeed faster than any of our guards then can we stop worrying about rankings of players? Because WVU's players were even lower ranked coming in than the Gtown players. Other than that I agree with many of your points.

Beilein (sp?) has been at WVU for four seasons now I think. More than midway through his third season (last year) WVU fans were questioning if their team had the right coach because the Neers were still struggling and looked as if they would not make the tourney. Then, just like that, it clicked for them. It happened late last season, carried over to the BE Tournament and then carried on to the NCAA tourney. III is only in his second season. I hope though it clicks for our guys (like this season) quicker than it did for the players of WVU. Also WVU a couple of years ago was mostly about keeping the scoring low. Now those guys don't mind getting into shootouts (like the one they had against Nova). I hope that's something Gtown can do too if needed down the road.

[SFHoya99]

Athleticism?

Quickness, speed, jumping, endurance, hand-eye coordination.

Gansey might not have Brandon's first step, but he was as quick as anyone out there.

I have no idea about his speed.

In a run and jump contest, I have no doubt Gansey is overmatched. However, he outjumped our (taller) players many times for boards. Not outtimed, just outleaped.

Which brings us to endurance. If we could have played like we played the first five minutes... Gansey was a pinball, always moving. I don't count athleticism as useful if you can only do it in spurts.

Hand-eye. Gansey has tremendous hand-eye coordination, IMO.

Too many people look at Gansey and see a white dude with good fundamentals. He shut Bowman down. He outrebounded everyone.

[Deleted]

Adam Morrison be damned... GANSEY IS THE NEXT LARRY BIRD!!!

[DanMcQ]

buffalohoya said:

Adam Morrison be damned... GANSEY IS THE NEXT LARRY BIRD!!!

Shouldn't this really be in the "Good game Hoyas!" Peace Love & Harmony thread?

[Deleted]

danmcq said:

Shouldn't this really be in the "Good game Hoyas!" Peace Love & Harmony thread?

You mean the "My Team Just Beat Yours So I'm Here to Pay You A Compliment and Underhandedly Gloat Because I Wouldn't Be Here If Your Team Had Won Not To Mention I Can't Take a Joke" thread?

[RockawayHoya]

buffalohoya said:

danmcq said:

Shouldn't this really be in the "Good game Hoyas!" Peace Love & Harmony thread?

You mean the "My Team Just Beat Yours So I'm Here to Pay You A Compliment and Underhandedly Gloat Because I Wouldn't Be Here If Your Team Had Won Not To Mention I Can't Take a Joke" thread?

That's the one!

[MCIGuy]

sfhoya99 said:

Athleticism?

Quickness, speed, jumping, endurance, hand-eye coordination.

I don't include endurance so I won't comment on that one.

As for Gansey...

Quickness? Maybe.
Speed? No.
Jumping? No.
Hand-eye coordination? Yes.


This has nothing about gansey being white. This is similiar to my argument concerning Boubacar Aw when people use to gush about his being a great athlete. To me he was never a great athlete. He was quick on defense but not on offense (the opposite of Gansey). He didn't have any speed. Jumping was non-existent. And his hand-eye-coordination wasn't all that impressive. But Aw, his senior year particularly, outworked more skilled and more athletic players. Gansey does this as well. In terms of the athletic department and skills I would take DJ over him 10 times out of ten. But Gansey works at it harder. He's a leader. He's confident. He's aggressive. He has a certain mentality that most players lack. As a result he's a better player. But he's not a better athlete IMO.

[SFHoya99]

How do you honestly determine that he is working harder rather than outquicking or outathleting (not a word) them?

White players work harder. Black players outquick others. Hey, I find myself doing it as well. A friend recently asked me to name the ten most athletic players in the NBA. None of those I listed were white. But when he pointed out a player, I had to agree.

[MCIGuy]

I see the player and get a feel for his height and how strong he looks' After watching him perform for at least a few games I get a feel for his all around ability, skill and athleticism. From that point I make up in my mind what players possess the most "gifts" and should be able to accomplish the most on the floor. If I've been keeping up with the players for years I can also run over in my mind which players improved, which stayed the same and never developed, which regressed, etc. Also I include what I know NBA scouts look at in players such as great height for a position, foot speed, explosiveness, athleticism, level of skill. And taking all of those components and seeing with my own two eyes and calling on my knowledge of basketball and what I have seen over the years, I come to conclusions. For example...my boy Boumtje Boumtje had good height for a center, very good foot speed, above average athleticism and coordination for a big man (was into gymnastics while in his native African country) and ambidextrous. His skill level wasn’t great but nonetheless still above average for a man of his size. Outside of height and possibly hands he was a better prospect than Roy Hibbert in very way. And coming out of high school he was more dominant in a more dominant league than Roy. But Hibbert is going to be by far a better player because he wants it more. Period. RBB was al class without a doubt but he did not appear to have the same drive to improve. The guy that most of us who saw him in high school thought would be a lottery pick ended up having an average career at Gtown and a second round pick and an NBA journeyman.

That’s just one example. I have dozens of others. Point is every one know there are those born with true physical gifts that most athletes would crave. And so many times those guys end up being busts or they fail to live up to their potential. Then comes along some player who doesn’t have nearly the amount of physical tools or skills but puts in the work to become the superior player or has the drive to always want to be the best. And by the way I’m not fixated on the race of the player. As a black person I don’t stereotype other black players as not being hard workers or white players as being non-athletic. So let it go please. As much as I can’t stand Jordan I have to concede he is a player who has all the physical tools, all the mental toughness and all the work athletic that you would ever want.

You’re born with, well, what you’re born with. We can all tell which players have the true physical gifts just by looking at them in warm-ups. We can’t tell the true players until the game, though, is actually played. Gansey, IMO, gets the most out of his abilities. Bowman and DJ do not and that’s a shame because both are more athletic than Gansey and DJ is at least as skilled as Gansey too.

[Locker]

Of the guys in our rotation, Brandon is the only one with freakish athleticism. After him I think West Virginia's players on the whole are just as athletic as the rest of ours.

[TrueHoyaBlue]

Given the body control that Jeff showed in a number of games last year, I would put him in the freakishly athletic category, but I'd love to see a bit more explosiveness on the whole from Mr. Green.

[ColumbiaHeightsHoya]

How many years should it take for us to get the offense? With the advent of the 1, 2, or 3 year college player, you don't have that much time. Maybe you could argue that once a couple of guys get it, then they will pick up the rest of the newer players but I don't want to rely on a system that takes over two years to learn.

I hope we click at the end of the year, but I also hope that the clicking doesn't come so late that we have to win the BE tourney to dance! I am not in panick mode, but I was expecting more out of this team at this point. A W over Vandy or WVU and I would be content. A W on Saturday would do the same thing.

[SFHoya99]

truehoyablue said:

Given the body control that Jeff showed in a number of games last year, I would put him in the freakishly athletic category, but I'd love to see a bit more explosiveness on the whole from Mr. Green.

I love Jeff and Brandon, but it has obviously been a long time for Hoya fans since we've seen freakishly athletic. Very athletic? In some ways. Freakishly athletic? I reserve that for the Josh Smiths, LeBron James, Vince Carters of the world.

[Bahstin]

sfhoya99 said:

truehoyablue said:

Given the body control that Jeff showed in a number of games last year, I would put him in the freakishly athletic category, but I'd love to see a bit more explosiveness on the whole from Mr. Green.

I love Jeff and Brandon, but it has obviously been a long time for Hoya fans since we've seen freakishly athletic. Very athletic? In some ways. Freakishly athletic? I reserve that for the Josh Smiths, LeBron James, Vince Carters of the world.

Vernon Macklin is freakishly athletic (for someone his size).

[Air Jordan]

CAN T wait for that new blood to hit campus

[SFHoya99]

mivcevich said:

How many years should it take for us to get the offense? With the advent of the 1, 2, or 3 year college player, you don't have that much time. Maybe you could argue that once a couple of guys get it, then they will pick up the rest of the newer players but I don't want to rely on a system that takes over two years to learn.

I hope we click at the end of the year, but I also hope that the clicking doesn't come so late that we have to win the BE tourney to dance! I am not in panick mode, but I was expecting more out of this team at this point. A W over Vandy or WVU and I would be content. A W on Saturday would do the same thing.

I think that's a real and valid concern with the Princeton.

On one hand, you have our struggles, WVU's struggles, etc.

As a counterpoint, Princeton under Thompson had Venable as Wallace succeed as stars as freshmen.

It's a tough one, and Thompson will definitely need to balance four year players with potential NBA talent.

Even doing that, I think it could lead to a lot more struggles with young teams.

[SFHoya99]

bahstin said:

Vernon Macklin is freakishly athletic (for someone his size).

So they say.

Also, DaJuan is quite the athlete. At the Nike All-American camp, where they get somewhere between 25-40% of all the top players, Summers finished 10th in the "sparq" rating, which is sort of like a combine rating system -- 20 yd dash, strength measures, quickness/ shuttle run type things, jumping.

DaJuan didn't blow any of the categories away (not in Top 10 of any of them) but finished 10th overall because he was very, very good in all of them.

For example, the top leapers were all 36" to 40". DaJuan clocked in at over 31". Which is not elite...but if you are the best of the next tier...

Also at that camp, guess who had the second fastest 20m time?

Austin Freeman.